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Old 07-20-2012, 01:02 PM   #181
stroopwafel
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Originally Posted by eastx View Post
Yeah, teach you. Do you not have an interest in understanding how the gaming industry works? Would you rather have an uninformed opinion and consistently misunderstand companies' actions and motivations? Obviously that's what Icarus wants, but I don't see how that would benefit you, Escaflying. Deliberate ignorance is one of the worst things in the world.
You ranting at Escaflowne for merely stating the obvious really demonstrates your condescending attitude towards anyone not sharing your opinion. You don't have to work for a developer to observe certain trends going in the wrong direction(espescially not from gamers who are passionately involved and have seen the industry change), or have credible recommendations how things could be better. Its always interesting to hear the opinion of someone working for a developer but that doesn't negate the fact that outside perspectives have just as much merit. Why do you think so many companies hire external consultants? Because conventional wisdon within any comanpy is not always a good thing. Gaming companies not exempted.

Personally I think many (espescially)publishers are too busy ripping off eachothers ideas in order to make some guaranteed risk-free cash. And this is at the cost of creativity. I don't think that is the developers fault as some really awesome, unique and artistic games have been released this gen, but rather the people running these development studios that have set the bar for what is considered a success in profit figures way too high. If a game doesn't sell like a COD or Elder Scrolls game it's considered a failure, and that is just a poor mentality to have if you want games to be creative and diverse instead of the same rehashed crap over and over.

My favorite developer is probably Fromsoft who doesn't even really care about the commercial success of their games as long as they enjoy making it. And that mentality just creates the best games that people will pick up and will eventually make a lot of profit anyway. EA is their polar opposite who is just a black hole that all creativity disappears in. That they still release great games just shows the quality of the developers under their umbrella. But the more the involvement of EA in the development process grows the more it will adopt these doctrines of absolute sales figures and sacrifice identity and creativity in the process. See Dead Space.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:08 PM   #182
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Definitely way way way more issues with publishers than developers. I'd put CDProjekt up as my favourite as they do everything for the gamers. Second would be SIgames and in joint with them Creative Assembly.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:23 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroopwafel View Post
You ranting at Escaflowne for merely stating the obvious really demonstrates your condescending attitude towards anyone not sharing your opinion. You don't have to work for a developer to observe certain trends going in the wrong direction(espescially not from gamers who are passionately involved and have seen the industry change), or have credible recommendations how things could be better. Its always interesting to hear the opinion of someone working for a developer but that doesn't negate the fact that outside perspectives have just as much merit. Why do you think so many companies hire external consultants? Because conventional wisdon within any comanpy is not always a good thing. Gaming companies not exempted.
A two paragraph response is a rant? Yours was three paragraphs, so you must have been in ultra-rant mode by that definition.

Outside perspectives obviously do have merit, provide they are informed and do not come from an idiot (usually the same thing). Someone who does not know what he is talking about, either because he chooses not to learn or simply has never had the opportunity to learn, can't possibly outrank someone who does have a good understanding of the subject matter in a debate.

Did you even see me arguing for or against any trend? No? My entire point was that if someone shares the facts and motivations behind business decisions and trends, it's then your responsibility as the listener to assimilate that information and use it when forming your own opinion. Why the hell would you be opposed to that?
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:26 PM   #184
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@Al

Well, the PC version is delayed because it takes longer to actually do, that's all. There's only 2 consoles to make the game work on but there's hundreds of different hardware combinations out there and we need to work with hardware manufacturers to ensure the game works well on all combinations, unlike some developers who don't bother. Would you rather have a broken game released early or a polished game released later? Sure, we could delay the console versions so they release together with the PC version, but it doesn't seem like good practice. If you knew the PC version of a game was finished and was getting delayed because work was still happening on the console version you'd probably be a little hacked off and wondering why the hell they don't just release the finished game.

But it means all our focus is on the PC version, it's not half arsed at all and coming from a PC gamer myself I'd love more multi-platform developers to do this. I'd say even more focus goes onto the PC version of the games simply because of this; it gets more 1 on 1 time than the console versions combined. Maybe if more studios did this wouldn't get un-optimised, unplayable games. Remember Resi 4 on PC? Tragic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stroopwafel
Its always interesting to hear the opinion of someone working for a developer but that doesn't negate the fact that outside perspectives have just as much merit.
It kind of does though, and it's not my opinion when I'm highlighting what actually happens; that's called a fact, and I'm not being arrogant or anything, I'm just pointing it out.

You can have an opinion on something no problem, no one's stopping you and I'm not necessarily trying to change it. But if suddenly you find out what you thought happened doesn't and it's different to what you originally thought then most normal people would re-think their position on the matter and re-evaluate their opinion with this new information, not dig their heels in and ignore it. I can understand and sympathise why people feel the way they do, I can see from people's perspectives what it might look like from the outside, but that's why I came to the thread and tried to clear it up, tried to explain what actually goes on so, as East said, people can have an informed opinion.

People should really just stop generalising so much because what many people believe to be the faults of the industry are really just the faults of the few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastx
Did you even see me arguing for or against any trend? No? My entire point was that if someone shares the facts and motivations behind business decisions and trends, it's then your responsibility as the listener to assimilate that information and use it when forming your own opinion. Why the hell would you be opposed to that?
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #185
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@Al

Well, the PC version is delayed because it takes longer to actually do, that's all. There's only 2 consoles to make the game work on but there's hundreds of different hardware combinations out there and we need to work with hardware manufacturers to ensure the game works well on all combinations, unlike some developers who don't bother. Would you rather have a broken game released early or a polished game released later? Sure, we could delay the console versions so they release together with the PC version, but it doesn't seem like good practice. If you knew the PC version of a game was finished and was getting delayed because work was still happening on the console version you'd probably be a little hacked off and wondering why the hell they don't just release the finished game.

I'm not a programmer but from what I've seen a PC uses the generic programming language to build things, making sure it works with nvidia and shitty ATI cards and the usual intel and AMD cpus, I dont know what else there actually would be. I've heard plenty of developers say the PC is the easiest and quickest platform to create games for.

Quite a few games over the years were delayed because of the console versions. I remember Oblivion getting a 4 month delay or something because the console versions werent ready but the PC version was. I Was furious. Its like PC version is always delayed with certain companies, but when the PC version gets delayed because of the consoles, thats just shoving dirt in your face. Theres a few other games recently that got delayed because they were having issues with the xbox or console versions. Wish I could recall what they were. I know they werent games I was interested in so I forgot the titles. And I'm far too lazy to search them up.

I know Witcher 2 for the console was delayed a little because they were having difficulties, but the PC version was ready and came out straight away. Best developer in the world.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:51 PM   #186
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I don't know what developers have said that but I definitely wouldn't agree with that. Getting a game just to work on the PC is the easiest, yes, but getting it to work well is where the problems lies. It's why we have emulators but the emulators run like crap, I can max out BF3 but can't run a PS2 emulator. We optimise and polish the console versions easier because there's one of them. There's hundreds of different PCs so it does end up taking a lot longer with everything that needs doing. We could probably release the digital version earlier than the boxed but I don't know why we don't, I can't comment on that. You're guess is as good as mine bud.

Plus, there's simply more to the PC version. You want support for higher resolutions, textures, advanced rendering techniques like SSAO, features like Eyefinity, etc. All versions are designed equally and when they split off from each other to get individual personalised tweaks, optimisations and features it's the PC version which takes the longest. Generally developers like CDP and Valve won't have the PC version take so much longer because that's the lead platform. We don't have a lead platform like that, they're all treated equally as much as possible. Except the Wii version... fuck that.

And see, as you said, a PC version being delayed because of the console version is a bit shit. Do you not think console gamers would feel the same way too? We try and treat all gamers, regardless of platform, as equally as possible and this is really the best way. As you said, CD Projekt didn't delay one version because of the other, it's a good practice, we just do it the other way around is all.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:08 PM   #187
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I get what you're saying but the delay on the PC versions are usually always 1 month later. Its too clean cut a time period just to get things working better. Its more to do with maximizing sales on the consoles since the first few weeks are the main strong parts, and then release on pc because they're worried about piracy. At least thats the reasoning I've seen from publishers. There was an interview a while back. Very blatant. Consoles are treated like the favourite child. If a game is ready then ship it out, thats cool. But the delay to pcs are mostly on purpose depending on the publisher. Ubisoft seem to be fine but theres a couple game series I think that they hold back on. I'm saying this without actually checking and going on by memory.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:31 PM   #188
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Well unfortunately that does happen, piracy is always a concern but PC versions still earn money despite it all, and PC sales, especially with Steam, have much more longevity than console sales. I do think you're right that a lot of the times it's about maximising console sales, games like Call of Duty in particular. But it's not a majority practice, we definitely don't do that and I know lots of other developers don't, it's why in Europe Driver: San Francisco released simultaneously across all platforms because we could, but ours doesn't have the same advanced features as stuff like Assassin's Creed does so our tweaking doesn't take as long. I'd say the big'uns like EA and Activision will do what you said, they sit on the PC version and don't do anything with it just for more console sales.

I'm fine with PC delays as long as it's for a good reason. Rocksteady delaying the PC version of Arkham City because it still needed work done and they were adding in DX11 support was fine, I can wait if it means a better final product. Typical industry practice is to concentrate on the PC tweaks once the full game is finished, so console versions typically enter and finish certification earlier and therefore get released earlier. But I do hate it when the PC version gets delayed only for us to get some shitty port. It's just like "What the hell were you doing all that time then?" It's retarded.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:37 PM   #189
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King o' Sentinels what is it, exactly, that you do with/for UBI Soft?
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:56 PM   #190
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:24 AM   #191
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It kind of does though, and it's not my opinion when I'm highlighting what actually happens; that's called a fact, and I'm not being arrogant or anything, I'm just pointing it out.

You can have an opinion on something no problem, no one's stopping you and I'm not necessarily trying to change it. But if suddenly you find out what you thought happened doesn't and it's different to what you originally thought then most normal people would re-think their position on the matter and re-evaluate their opinion with this new information, not dig their heels in and ignore it.
The problem is though we only have your word that you even work for UBI Soft at all. I've been using the internet for along time and personally speaking I'd take anything anyone says in that regard with a huge pinch of salt to be honest.

For all I know you could be a overweight 54 year old computer geek who never leaves the house.

So really anything you post will be regarded as your opinion and definity not fact. I'm not trying to be a dick but that's just how I see it.
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:39 AM   #192
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:15 AM   #193
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I know grimace, it looks like you impregnated yourself! ;)
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:37 AM   #194
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For all I know you could be a overweight 54 year old computer geek who never leaves the house.

So really anything you post will be regarded as your opinion and definity not fact. I'm not trying to be a dick but that's just how I see it.
How dare you!... I'm 52!

Well that's fine, I'm not exactly going to be posting all my personal information here in order to prove my validity, but nothing I've said hasn't been probably been corroborated by other sources before and is untrue, and I bet if what I said agreed with everyone about how developers are greedy and evil, no one would be disagreeing.

Gearbox have actually validated exactly what I said happens with DLC, which is a rather nice convenience, and it's not like they can be questioned.

Quote:
Today, we have some exciting new to share about Borderlands 2 -- the game is headed to certification!

This means that the game’s on-disc content has been locked down and will be thoroughly tested to ensure it is ready for release -– in other words, the game is finished and we cannot make any further changes to the game. As such, the team is now shifting their focus towards post-launch efforts, including the Mechromancer: the new character class that will be released as FREE downloadable content to members of the Borderlands 2 Premiere Club roughly 60 to 90 days after launch.
http://www.gearboxity.com/content/view/906/33/

All I was trying to do was to help people understand how stuff works. I didn't realize just how deaf the ears were that it'd fall on, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.
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Old 07-21-2012, 05:03 AM   #195
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I think people are saying the publishers are the greedy ones not the developers. Its always the publishers who push for extra screwage and some developers have to follow their lead.
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