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Old 08-17-2005, 09:40 AM   #16
Zod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nindalf
Christians have not existed 4000 years.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/christia.html


2500 BC + 2005 AD = 4505 years.
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Old 08-17-2005, 09:45 AM   #17
FinalSolace2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper exe
Zod, you should first learn what you are talking about then post.
Did it ever occurred to you that these people just changed there religion? Did you even read the Holy Qur'an to say such a thing and that Muslim force people to believe, guess what, God or any other Muslims, don't care less if you or any other person don't believe in it. Most of the Africans countries, become Muslim on there own well and Muslims never even made war or even threaten them, because they couldn?t go there. Only some Muslims merchandisers went there and they believed in the religion, because how these Muslims merchandisers treat them and not ripping them off on what they sell etc. Are you claiming that some few men beat a reign!?



Also, Jews are and was never an enemy, but what these people do and invading these people country and kill them then when one of them was killed they kill 10 Muslim instead of that one person as if they are better then them. View it in anyway, these Jews are either worst or in you Muslim hater view, are as much bad. If one Muslim attacks them they kill 10 other innocent Muslims instead. Is this what you call fair? What these other 9 have to do with it? What did they do? Is having the same believe is a crime? Not to mention all of these kids and woman that where killed as well.
Also, Alucard is right, this land is there land now, and there is nothing wrong to live with Muslims in the same country. Every one has his/her believe and torturing someone because they disagree with them is completely ignorant.
People used to live in that land before Jews even moved in, when they where in Egypt, so even in your logic, it is still not there probity from the beginning. Hack, no one even lived in it from the beginning, then people moved out and live in that land, no one was originally born in that land.
why are jews that recently colonialised land ripped from the palestinians recently now on TV protesting and throwing rocks and rioting and making themselves look bad- i never saw people with ham strings do that before i was shocked- normal civilian occupants. It looks like its the jews that hate muslims on the ground level- maybe its this dissent that spurs on government to carry out all thats happening till now...... now the governments changing tune look whats going on- the germens persecuted the jews for so long- hold on whats happened before that??

remember the germans said they felt oppressed by jews before conflicts started and that they were made to be the underclass.

are jews trying tro squeeze out muslims in the same way.
imean they have been doing already-

if germans turned into facists certainly muslims will extreamists- didnt the jew learn anything of the past.

i dont see why not the great leaders of the religions add extra parts to the bible or koran or whatever teaching what happens if you oppress anothers people through historical accounts.

the hutu's wanted to kill the tootsies in ruwanda for exactly the same reason- when the dutch left the left all the power to the hutus. before that the dutch were close with the tootsies and gave them wealth- the tootsies treated the hutus like crap and then now the hutus conducted a genocide killing over a million people in a few short years.

whats worse is that were talking 2 religions here that hate each other.

maybe we should take isreal from both the muslims and the jews and split it down the middle and have UN guard the middle until hate subsides.

they should build a juge wall around jerusalem and have UN make it a holy city like vatican with no religios heads in control......

but the american government cant be trusted so the region looks doomed from where i am.

plus palestine is in two pieces?- how will a self governing state support itself? would the jew help them? maybe the jews will do the opposite seeing as they hate muslims.

sorry if my post is extreme but right now i dont like what i see from the jews.

maybe the forced pullout is the only solution.
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Last edited by FinalSolace2; 08-17-2005 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-17-2005, 09:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/christia.html


2500 BC + 2005 AD = 4505 years.
Bullshit. Word "Christian" on that time line wasn't even mentioned until 30 AD. Just because some moron wrote "A time-line of Christianity and Judaism" means nothing. Until around that time there was just Judaism.
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Old 08-17-2005, 10:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/christia.html


2500 BC + 2005 AD = 4505 years.
Ahaha! Are you fucking kidding me?!?!

Are you saying christians were following the teachings of Jesus before Jesus was alive? They belived in him for 2500 years before there was even a Jesus? Do you realise how silly that sounds? Thats I was a marxist in the year 300 or a Maoist in the year 10. Your time line is a little srange/impossible.

At anyrate, well Alucard's notion of napalming everything is an intresting idea I don't think we have the napalm to supply that. Aside from the crazy he does raise a good point, if you really wanna dig deep the land was originally inhabited by thousands upon thousand of bactreia, and still is, we crush them in our daily lives.

A FREE BACTRE-ALISTINE!

No but seriously, this issue is so fucked up I don't really want to get itno it. I;m not going to touch it with a ten foot poll.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337haxxor
Ahaha! Are you fucking kidding me?!?!

Are you saying christians were following the teachings of Jesus before Jesus was alive? They belived in him for 2500 years before there was even a Jesus? Do you realise how silly that sounds? Thats I was a marxist in the year 300 or a Maoist in the year 10. Your time line is a little srange/impossible.

At anyrate, well Alucard's notion of napalming everything is an intresting idea I don't think we have the napalm to supply that. Aside from the crazy he does raise a good point, if you really wanna dig deep the land was originally inhabited by thousands upon thousand of bactreia, and still is, we crush them in our daily lives.

A FREE BACTRE-ALISTINE!

No but seriously, this issue is so fucked up I don't really want to get itno it. I;m not going to touch it with a ten foot poll.
It shows the roots of Christianity, which do start in Judaism.




Quote:
Are you saying christians were following the teachings of Jesus before Jesus was alive? They belived in him for 2500 years before there was even a Jesus? Do you realise how silly that sounds? Thats I was a marxist in the year 300 or a Maoist in the year 10. Your time line is a little srange/impossible.
Are you that ignorant of the bible? Most of the old testament occurs before Jesus was alive! Stuff like Moses, Noah, etc. occurred centuries before Jesus was born.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod
It shows the roots of Christianity, which do start in Judaism.
They are also the roots of Islam. Still no one's arguing Islam began 4000 years ago

Quote:
Are you that ignorant of the bible? Most of the old testament occurs before Jesus was alive! Stuff like Moses, Noah, etc. occurred centuries before Jesus was born.
But Christianity still didn't start until Jesus. It was Judaism.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:11 PM   #22
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They are also the roots of Islam. Still no one's arguing islam began 4000 years ago
That is arguable. Islam tries to claim certain biblical figures like Abraham as Muslims, but were never able to prove any connection.


Quote:
But Christianity still didn't start until Jesus. It was Judaism.
According to the Christian and Jewish bibles, both started before Jesus.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod
That is arguable. Islam tries to claim certain biblical figures like Abraham as Muslims, but were never able to prove any connection.
And some of them, at least, also consider Islam to be the final step of a monotheist religion, which would mean it evolved from Christianity and Judaism. And what in religion(Or religious history) isn't arguable?

Quote:
According to the Christian and Jewish bibles, both started before Jesus.
But no one thought that way BEFORE Jesus, so it started from him. Until Jesus, there was just the old testament that was all about Judaism.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:30 PM   #24
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Actually no; brutal African warlords engaged in years of "ethnic cleansing" against those who refused to convert, which is still happening right now in places like Sudan, as well as people like Moammar Qaddafi making sure they don't return with hardliner Muslim policies.
To be honest, I don't understand what you just said.
Anyway, just to clear something up. What I said is a fact. even if Arab wanted to fight back then, they could not, but these Africans magically become Muslim after meting these Merchandisers. Are you saying that very few men (10 or so) bet all of these African countries!? Also, these Africans are now Muslims and if they wanted, they can change there religion anytime they want, but they did not, why is that? Care to give me a proof that any Islam country threatening them?




Quote:
...yet Muslims treat them like an enemy.
Why not read my post, instead of blindly say something like this.
Here read the quote that you quoted, again.
Quote:
Also, Jews are and was never an enemy, but what these people do and invading these people country and kill them then when one of them was killed they kill 10 Muslim instead of that one person as if they are better then them.
Well, I should have said what these people did like, not do and, but I think my post did get the point crossed anyway, and we all make mistakes like what you did here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zod
Christians, have been around in the region for 4000+ years


Quote:
Usually it's only one doing a suicide bombing that kills ten or more Jews, while ten others in his group ranging from the bomb-makers to the leaders run and hide. Is it fair to target them? I'd say so.
What?
If 10 Jews died on suicide bombing then they will kill so many innocent Muslims instead, for revenge on what that person that they have nothing to do with did.
I will give you an example to make you get the point. Let just say that there are three brothers, one of them killed someone (Some say that the man deserve it and some say that who killed him is insane and some say that who killed him is a murder) Then that man family want revenge, instead of killing that one man, they killed both him and his other brothers, because both of them are brothers. Is this fair? Do you think that what they did was right?
To make it worst, these people that the Jews killed mostly end up being not from the same family, but just people that share the same beliefe or in other word, has different opinion then Jews, so what give the Jews the right to kill them?



Quote:
I agree. do those who call themselves Palestinians agree? Does Hamas agree? Did Arafat agree?
For the Palestinians, yes I know a lot of them that agrees, but then again, that cannot be a fact, because that not all of them.
But there religion dose agree and Mohamed him self said that if a Muslim treat who live in there country badly, because they have a different religion then he will fight these Muslims in the Day of Judgment. Well, Daniel, I know you want to learn, but keep in mind that I only said the main point, so don't take that as a perfectly full hadith, because I can hardly write English, so translating it is not an easy task for little old me.



Quote:
Jews were still in Israel for thousands of years before Islam even existed, and that is a FACT. Jews aren't taking Palestinian land.
This already been answered in my post and you can also find it in other members post in the same thread and with each point of view on it.



Quote:
Muslims are taking Jewish land. Also, in places like Egypt, Muslim encroachment was so thorough that there are no black native Egyptians left. The nearest black people to Egypt in Africa are in Ethiopia.
Care to explain why there are a lot of black Arabs in the Middle East? Care to explain how could some of them have jobs as good as white people? And why my only friend is black and I am yet to see any one disrespects him, because of his color and if some one did he can actually use the religion against that person. etc.
Your Egypt information is simply not true. Islam is what stopped Slavery, Islam is what saved million of woman?s life, Islam is what made Black the same as white etc. All of these would never happened with out Islam. Islam is not a bad religion like what you seems to think.

Last edited by Paper exe; 08-17-2005 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:32 PM   #25
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:yikes: religion debate #XXX

I feel like saying theres no use in the debate since theres no such thing has a god, but that wont stop anyone... so go ahead
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:33 PM   #26
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:40 PM   #27
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Actually, Islam does posit that Abraham and Jesus were Muslim, insofar that they were completely submissive to God's will. Any follower of God before Muhammed is considered a Muslim in retrospect. From this point of view, the devisions in faiths really developed once Muhammed delivered the final prophecies and some chose not to follow the new directives.

Of course, Paper could best correct me on that one.

As for the pullout, it's the necessary end to an occupation. Israel might have had an anceint right to the land, but even they once took it by force. By the logic employed by the settlers, Lebanon could invade citing a Phoenician right. So could Iraq, citing Babylonian right. Hell, even Greece could make a move.

Just becuase the Jewish people were once settled there doesn't make up for the fact that for the last 2000 years the area has been predominantly Muslim and Christian. The occupation is the result of many machinations, from Israeli pride to the refusal of Jordan or Egypt to render aid to the occupied peoples (to keep them in a prolonged state of desperation). It had to end the way it shoud have begun; with an Israeli and Palestinian state.

Mind you, the surrounding Muslim states needed some ass-handing to realize that Israel wasn't going anywhere, but they've been at peace with Egypt for 20 years, and recently signed a treaty with Jordan (I think). Yes, terrorists might try to claim this as a victory, but who cares? They won't have anything legitimate to fight for after this. Well, they'll still think of us...

Israel doesn't want the problem. It won't permit naturalization of the occupied because then Jewish citizens would lose the voting majority. They can't hold onto it forever, with the cost in human life and supplies, so that a few fundamentalists (yes, they exist on both sides) can stake a Biblical claim in modern times. The only reason this persists is because of politics; boldly, though, Sharon has taken a first step, despite amazing criticism. It takes the bigger man to end a fight, and Israel is now proving itself to be that man. It alleviates much of the international criticism against the nation, and allows them to better position themselves for defense rather than occupation.

I only wish another Western government would follow their example. :annoyed:

We can only hope and see that some good comes from this.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nem
:yikes: religion debate #XXX

I feel like saying theres no use in the debate since theres no such thing has a god, but that wont stop anyone... so go ahead
Not, really. I for one am replying to the thread, which is mainly about Palestinian and Jews
Also, care to explain how can this be right? I have numbers proofs of God existing, but what do you have? Just look around you, do you believe that all of it was made by nothing?



Quote:
Actually, Islam does posit that Abraham and Jesus were Muslim, insofar that they were completely submissive to God's will. Any follower of God before Muhammed is considered a Muslim in retrospect. From this point of view, the devisions in faiths really developed once Muhammed delivered the final prophecies and some chose not to follow the new directives.
Yes, they are. Even Adam the first human is considered a Muslim in retrospect.

Last edited by Paper exe; 08-17-2005 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:53 PM   #29
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christianity has a religion didn't start till the Roman age in around 100 AD to around 500 AD

which the romans tried to stop by killing anyone one who believe in it
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Old 08-17-2005, 02:23 PM   #30
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Israel does not belong to the Christian or the Muslim, it belongs to the Jew.

Christianity did not start until after Christs death, and resurrection, and means "Christ-Like"

The original Christians were Jewish converts.
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