PDA

View Full Version : PS2.... One of the worst consoles ever made.


Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5

DeathStroke
08-05-2004, 12:35 AM
Icarus made no claims on the PS2 audience to be called arrogant,DeathStroke,I did.It doesn't really matter

The key to understanding posts, is reading them first. Okie? He only called me arrogant and I was just replying on that point.

I feel the same sometimes. What Capcom doing with GC now is what it used to do with DC. What the hell is up putting some exclusives on a dying system? What is Capcom thinking? I have a GC and like three games on it. Sad, huh? I don't really want anything else besides that RPG and RE4.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. It's the same situation as it was with the DC. I would have been happy if they'd just given the GC some ports and some fringe titles like Dino Crisis or Gotcha Force, which I don't really care all that much about anyway but they had to go and put frikkin' Resident Evil on the GC. I've put too much time in the series to quit just now although REmake and RE0 were pretty average experiences. RE4 though looks to turn all that around.

Vert1
08-05-2004, 12:52 AM
Enough idle chatter Deathstroke.What has Icarus4578 done that is arrogant here?By the way Capcom put the bad dino crisis on xbox not gamecube.

Icarus4578
08-05-2004, 09:28 AM
Leave it Vert1. He can't come up with a good response because he knows, as well as everybody else, that I'm 100% correct.

Mistatee
08-05-2004, 10:42 AM
Enough idle chatter Deathstroke.What has Icarus4578 done that is arrogant here?By the way Capcom put the bad dino crisis on xbox not gamecube.

Capcom put horrible Resident Evil Zero on Gamecube not X-Box, and put horrific Devil May Cry 2 on PS2 not X-Box... So your point is not valid. Unless you were proving that Capcom has lost the edge.

Oh and BTW Capcom put redicously cool Steel Battalion on X-Box not GC, why? becuase capcom said only the X-box can handle the intense realism they put into the graphics. Cuz incase if you haven't checked, the X-box has a better GPU, Processor and a HD, making its little slower in memory not even a factor. It is the greatest technology wise. They just need some more games to prove it.

Games like Conkers, which you can count the hairs on the cheek of the squirell as they sway in the wind. The bumpmapping technologies of Halo 2, which allows for less polygons so it runs without slowdown as 30 things explode. Lets us not forget the fact that Fable can only be done on the X-Box for a built in hardrive is a requirement... Enough is enough, and im tired of reading your Nintendo "fanboy" bull****. Even nintendo themselves will admit the X-Box can do things the Gamecube can't. Like hold 2nd place in the console race for starters.

Vert1
08-05-2004, 10:54 AM
I was replying to Deathstroke when he said Capcom put a fringe Dino Crisis on GC.I don't know what you're rambling about.

-edit-

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. It's the same situation as it was with the DC. I would have been happy if they'd just given the GC some ports and some fringe titles like Dino Crisis or Gotcha Force, which I don't really care all that much about anyway but they had to go and put frikkin' Resident Evil on the GC.

Of coarse now that I look at it,he worded what he said so oddly it's kindof hard to tell what he is actually saying.Is he wishing for fringe titles to come to GC like Dino Crisis or Gotcha Force or just ports or both.Because for one GC already does have the "fringe" title Gotcha Force and two he just said he can really cares less about the aforementioned fringe titles and/or ports.....?????

Your reply is out of line anyhow.I simply stated Capcom put a bad Dino Crisis on XBOX and you go nuts over me being a fanboy for saying that....I never meant to say anything bad about capcom's support on xbox or whatever you thought that made you respond like that.I was just saying Capcom put a bad Dino Crisis(the third one) on XBOX.You need to calm the hell down.You can't just walk into a debate/discussion and sound off like that.

DeathStroke
08-05-2004, 12:45 PM
Enough idle chatter Deathstroke.What has Icarus4578 done that is arrogant here?

Well, other then creating this post and going on general ramblings as if he's some all knowing game authority, there's this little gem:

Leave it Vert1. He can't come up with a good response because he knows, as well as everybody else, that I'm 100% correct.

Arrogant? I think so.

By the way Capcom put the bad dino crisis on xbox not gamecube.

I meant that I would have been a lot happier if Capcom had put fringe titles like Dino Crisis, which I don't care about or Steel Battalion, which I don't care about or Gotcha Force, which I don't care enough about to own, on GC instead of X-box. Basically, what I meant was that all the support they're giving X-box is the type of support they should have given GC along with an original title here or there that's not part of their main franchises. But then, Mikami went on his b****ing rant about how Kingdom Hearts sold more then REmake and decided to make even more titles for GC. Not only that but he took Hideki Kamiya with him and they came up with something as insanely cool as Viewtiful Joe. But I could have waited for that on my PS2 anyway.

Icarus4578
08-05-2004, 12:55 PM
DeathStroke ~ "Arrogant? I think so."

Arrogant? I think not. Correct? Absolutely. I don't remember any game console being so great that I'd sit online all day talking about it instead of playing it. :cool:

naruto_sensei
08-05-2004, 01:09 PM
Capcom put horrible Resident Evil Zero on Gamecube not X-Box, and put horrific Devil May Cry 2 on PS2 not X-Box... So your point is not valid. Unless you were proving that Capcom has lost the edge.

Oh and BTW Capcom put redicously cool Steel Battalion on X-Box not GC, why? becuase capcom said only the X-box can handle the intense realism they put into the graphics. Cuz incase if you haven't checked, the X-box has a better GPU, Processor and a HD, making its little slower in memory not even a factor. It is the greatest technology wise. They just need some more games to prove it.

Games like Conkers, which you can count the hairs on the cheek of the squirell as they sway in the wind. The bumpmapping technologies of Halo 2, which allows for less polygons so it runs without slowdown as 30 things explode. Lets us not forget the fact that Fable can only be done on the X-Box for a built in hardrive is a requirement... Enough is enough, and im tired of reading your Nintendo "fanboy" bull****. Even nintendo themselves will admit the X-Box can do things the Gamecube can't. Like hold 2nd place in the console race for starters.

oh wow 30 things exploding at the same time, that just makes me so sad that I never got the xbox :rolleyes: but don't worry you gamecube and xbox guys keep fighting for 2nd place.
also fable is not going to work I know it :evilsmile

DeathStroke
08-05-2004, 01:18 PM
DeathStroke ~ "Arrogant? I think so."

Arrogant? I think not. Correct? Absolutely. I don't remember any game console being so great that I'd sit online all day talking about it instead of playing it. :cool:

Well, the PS2 must obviously be great if you can sit here all day babysitting this thread of yours.

Nem
08-05-2004, 02:58 PM
okay, i dont have the time to read the whole thread so, ill just come out and say that i think that the PS2 hardware is indeed the worst ever made. There are more broken down PS2?s than all other broken down (at least during its first 2/3 years of existance) consoles put together. Its time to admit that the PS2 was a rushed and clumsy job, to please hardcore Playstation fans and retailers. The great ammount of PS2 versions is proof of just that. And the fate of PS4 will lie heavily on the liability of the PS3. You know the drill, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice never again...

Drunken Savior
08-05-2004, 07:20 PM
DeathStroke ~ "Arrogant? I think so."

Arrogant? I think not. Correct? Absolutely. I don't remember any game console being so great that I'd sit online all day talking about it instead of playing it. :cool:

How long have you been talking about games online? Heck, I didn't even go online to read about games until Silent Hill 2's plot confused the hell out of em and Dan Berlew had to spell it out for me.

Icarus4578
08-06-2004, 10:16 AM
I don't sit online all day talking about games. And I'll be the first to admit that every one of these consoles (GC, PS2, and X-Box) has been seriously lacking. All three of them combined is no match for a great system like the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, etc.

Omnislash005
08-06-2004, 06:01 PM
I don't sit online all day talking about games. And I'll be the first to admit that every one of these consoles (GC, PS2, and X-Box) has been seriously lacking. All three of them combined is no match for a great system like the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, etc.

That is very true.

naruto_sensei
08-06-2004, 09:03 PM
I don't sit online all day talking about games. And I'll be the first to admit that every one of these consoles (GC, PS2, and X-Box) has been seriously lacking. All three of them combined is no match for a great system like the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, etc.

saturn? how many GOOD games does it have? I doubt it higher than 20.
I can name at least 60 very good games from all three systems. I guess good consoles aren't decided by the number of good games it has but if right now was 1995 and I had a saturn I'd get tired of playing the same games over and over and eventually have to get a PS

gearhound
08-06-2004, 09:26 PM
the PS2 isn't the worst console ever released... that is completely absurd. we all know that prestigious award goes to the 3DO. now insofar as durability is concerned, the PS2 or the original playstation are lacking. i wonder what the ratio is... we should know because this would eliminate the claim of every PS2 breaking down, like most people seem to think (inflated userbase).

gabriel
08-06-2004, 09:39 PM
I thought my PS2 was immune to the DRE epidemic that's been sweeping the nation, until it finally succumbed to it about a month ago. Boy, was I pissed. So pissed that I went to the mall, and gave Sony more money for a new one. Now I love my new PS2. The end.

naruto_sensei
08-06-2004, 09:53 PM
its kind of funny how icarus and all those other people who hate sony say that, some people had to buy like 4 or 5 PS2s because they brake down so easily. But you have to wonder how good is PS2 that people buy it so many times (unless its just bull****, just people trying to diss the PS2 which is probably what it is)

gearhound
08-06-2004, 10:01 PM
I thought my PS2 was immune to the DRE epidemic that's been sweeping the nation, until it finally succumbed to it about a month ago. Boy, was I pissed. So pissed that I went to the mall, and gave Sony more money for a new one. Now I love my new PS2. The end.

i know the feeling. i had to replace my original playstation for 60 bucks. i bought my playstation on launch day '95.

not a bad deal if you ask me.

Sinful Sam
08-06-2004, 10:13 PM
its kind of funny how icarus and all those other people who hate sony say that, some people had to buy like 4 or 5 PS2s because they brake down so easily. But you have to wonder how good is PS2 that people buy it so many times (unless its just bull****, just people trying to diss the PS2 which is probably what it is)
Well it does suck having games and no console to play them on. I don't understand why Sony can't resolve this problem with there console. I don't even trust Sony products anymore they usually beak soon on me.

When I first got my PS2 it already started having problems. It couldn’t read CD rom games and had to send it to the repair shop.:annoyed:

gabriel
08-06-2004, 11:15 PM
Well it does suck having games and no console to play them on.

Exactly. Just because the hardware is junk, doesn't mean the games aren't fun.

Icarus4578
08-07-2004, 02:04 AM
naruto_sensei ~ "saturn? how many GOOD games does it have? I doubt it higher than 20."

You're sorely mistaken.

naruto_sensei ~ "I can name at least 60 very good games from all three systems. I guess good consoles aren't decided by the number of good games it has but if right now was 1995 and I had a saturn I'd get tired of playing the same games over and over and eventually have to get a PS"

Woah, 60!? I guess Xenosaga 2 is a great piece of software and Saturn games such as Shining the Holy Ark and NiGHTS are just sad jokes in comparison. :rolleyes:

gearhound ~ "the PS2 isn't the worst console ever released... that is completely absurd. we all know that prestigious award goes to the 3DO."

While 3DO may suck ass, Phillips CD-i must be even worse.

gabriel ~ "I thought my PS2 was immune to the DRE epidemic that's been sweeping the nation, until it finally succumbed to it about a month ago. Boy, was I pissed. So pissed that I went to the mall, and gave Sony more money for a new one. Now I love my new PS2. The end."

You gerbil. I'm willing to bet that if the price was right (say $20) Sony could buy you and make you their pet, but that's just me.

naruto_sensei ~ "its kind of funny how icarus and all those other people who hate sony say that, some people had to buy like 4 or 5 PS2s because they brake down so easily. But you have to wonder how good is PS2 that people buy it so many times (unless its just bull****, just people trying to diss the PS2 which is probably what it is)"

Fortunately, I didn't buy it four times. I bought it once with a two-year warranty. Each year it would break, so I'd return it and they'd hand me a 'refurbished' PS2 which, of course, would eventually break down for absolutely no reason. My two-year warranty ran out and then my third PS2 finally went bye bye, so I went and got another. I've made it clear that if this PS2 breaks then I'm going to introduce it to Binky the Evil Sledgehammer.

gearhound ~ "i know the feeling. i had to replace my original playstation for 60 bucks. i bought my playstation on launch day '95.

not a bad deal if you ask me."

Yeah, if you're doing crack. :rolleyes: Jeez, are people stupid? How come all of my old systems work perfectly fine, barring NES, and they're supposedly lesser technology? Apparently, those manufacturers seemed to be a helluva lot smarter than Sony. The PS2 is like paying to bring home a bad 3D arcade, and every once in awhile you need to pay for another in order to keep on playing, almost like paying a phone bill or internet service provider. :thumb-dn:

Sinful Sam ~ "Well it does suck having games and no console to play them on. I don't understand why Sony can't resolve this problem with there console. I don't even trust Sony products anymore they usually beak soon on me.

When I first got my PS2 it already started having problems. It couldn?t read CD rom games and had to send it to the repair shop. :annoyed:"

Yeah, and it's no good bringing it up here because these people are all blind Sony worshippers who don't believe a word you say.

gabriel ~ "Exactly. Just because the hardware is junk, doesn't mean the games aren't fun."

So what are you getting at? If a hardware manufacturer is intentionally making sh*t systems that break easily then why are you sitting there defending them?

No.... forget I asked. I already know why ~ "The PS2 pwnz! Sony are gods among us mortals! All shall bow down and kiss their fat corporate asses!!"

Drunken Savior
08-07-2004, 03:28 AM
Wait? You bought an extended warranty? That doesn't sound right.

Icarus4578
08-07-2004, 09:59 AM
I got a two-year warranty for $20 when I had first bought the system about three months after it launched.

Vert1
08-07-2004, 10:15 AM
I remember the lady at Best Buy asking me if I wanted a warranty on my Gamecube when I bought it.I laughed and was extremely puzzled why I would need such a thing.Than I remembered Sony was in the game industry....

Zelda-Movie remixed (http://www.gametrailers.com/gt_fanmovies/ft_zelda01.html)

Icarus4578
08-07-2004, 10:17 AM
True. But how could that damage Nintendo's rep as far as functional hardware is concerned? Nintendo isn't a bunch of gerbils.

Vert1
08-07-2004, 10:26 AM
Nothing will tarnish the quality Nintendo puts forth concerning hardware functionability.If anything people have realized Nintendo was better for them than Sony ever was.I don't understand why you would shell out extra money(purchasing additional PS2's) to play few enjoyable games..?If it was me I'd be like screw that.Than again you wouldn't see me buying a PS2 in the first place...

Icarus4578
08-07-2004, 10:29 AM
Well if this PS2 breaks on me then Sony can kiss all of my future business goodbye, and that even includes if they have games like Castlevania and Lunar. I'm serious. They're going to learn the hard way that not everybody is going to tolerate them and their cheap business practice of manufacturing broken hardware.

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 11:21 AM
naruto_sensei ~ "I can name at least 60 very good games from all three systems. I guess good consoles aren't decided by the number of good games it has but if right now was 1995 and I had a saturn I'd get tired of playing the same games over and over and eventually have to get a PS"

Icarus ~"Woah, 60!? I guess Xenosaga 2 is a great piece of software and Saturn games such as Shining the Holy Ark and NiGHTS are just sad jokes in comparison. :rolleyes:"

I meant I could name 60 games counting only the ones that are out right now. I cannot judge if games like xenosaga are going to be any good since I'm not a psychic(spelling?) and neither are you.

I never liked my N64 because it had about 5 exellent titles and about 15 ok ones everything outside of that was mostly crap.

Vert1
08-07-2004, 11:37 AM
I demand the two of you show these lists the next time you post in this thread!

THE ICHI
08-07-2004, 12:35 PM
Sorry for butting in but I have a good saturn list:
Dragon Force (Best game ever)
Dragon Force 2
NiGHTS
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Guardian Heroes
Radiant Silvergun (Best shooter ever)
Shining Force III scenario 1,2,&3 (Best SRPG ever)
Grandia
Magic Knight Rayearth
Shining Force III Premium Disc
Burning Rangers
DoDonPachi
GunGriffon
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter (better on the Saturn then the PS)
Metal Slug
Saturn Bomberman
Solar Eclipse
Virtua Fighter 2
Waku Waku 7
X-Men vs. Street Fighter (better on the Saturn then the PS)
Dead or Alive (better on the Saturn then the PS)
Virtua Racing
Dracula X
Sonic 3D Blast
Shining the Holy Ark
All Japan Pro Wrestling
Who said saturn didn't have good games :kill: :sweat:

Vert1
08-07-2004, 12:40 PM
Saturn Bomberman!!!! :cool guy:

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 01:09 PM
XBOX:
1.HALO,
2.star wars KOTOR,
3.project ogtham racing 2,
4.tom clancy's splinter cell pandora tommorow
5.prince of persia: the sands of time
6.tom clancy's splinter cell
7.ninja gaiden
8.SSX 3
9.panzer dragoon orta
10.the chronicles of riddick: escape from buthcer bay
11.tony hawk's pro skater 3
12.Morrowind GOTY
13.Rallisport challenge 2
14.jet set radio future
15.MOTO GP 2
16.dead or alive 3
17.top spin
18.burnout 2
19.rainbow six 3
20.mech assault
21. metal slug 3

gamecube:
1.metroid prime
2.the legend of zelda: wind waker
3.the legend of zelda: collector's edition
4.soul calibur II
5. super mario sunshine
6.viewtiful joe
7.resident evil
8.super smash bros. melee
9.time splitters 2
10. eternal darkness: sanity's requiem
11.F-zero GX
12.tony hawk's pro skater 4
13. tales of symphonia
14.Animal crossing
15.Beyond good & evil
16.Super monkey ball
17.Mario kart double dash!!
18.super monkey ball 2
19.skies of arcadia legends
20.Pikmin

PS2:
1.grand theft auto 3
2.grand theft auto vice city
3.metal gear solid 2
4.gran turismo 3 a-spec
5.virtua fighter 4: evolution
6.ratchet & clank
7.ratchet & clank going commando
8.final fantasy X
9.Devil may cry
10.tony hawk's underground
11.ICO
12.Jak
13.JAK II
14. dark cloud 2
15.twisted metal: black
16.need for speed hot pursuit 2
17.kingdom hearts
18.final fantasy XI
19.guilty gear X2
20.onimusha 3
21.DDR max dance dance revolution
22.suikoden III
23.marvel vs capcom 2
24. capcom vs SNK 2

and please don't say bull**** like these titles are overrated and the ones that you listed are much better :rolleyes:

Vert1
08-07-2004, 01:20 PM
Excuse me while I go off somewhere else to laugh.

looks like you're heading towards bad times in this thread :(

j_factor
08-07-2004, 04:33 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks the PS2 version of capcom vs SNK 2 is actually great. Those lists are lame.
That saturn list is lame too.

*stops elitism*

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 04:44 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks the PS2 version of capcom vs SNK 2 is actually great. Those lists are lame.
That saturn list is lame too.

*stops elitism*

what is wrong with the PS2 version? *boo hoo the controls suck* shut the **** up
:kill:
just plug in the arcade joystick and if you're not used to them then too bad.

all of the games that I listed are good at worst what are you talking about?

DeathStroke
08-07-2004, 06:20 PM
I think he may be talking about how pixelized the PS2 version of CvS2 is. A problem that is apparently fixable if you use S-video.

gearhound
08-07-2004, 06:26 PM
capcom vs. SNK is 2-d fighting heaven on the dreamcast, and is one of the best fighters ever.

radiant silvergun is not the best shooter ever.

axelay is the best shooter ever.

the saturn is a wonderful machine

the n64 sucks. there are only a handful of good titles, most of which were developed by nintendo.


gearhound ~ "i know the feeling. i had to replace my original playstation for 60 bucks. i bought my playstation on launch day '95.

not a bad deal if you ask me."

Yeah, if you're doing crack. :rolleyes: Jeez, are people stupid? How come all of my old systems work perfectly fine, barring NES, and they're supposedly lesser technology? Apparently, those manufacturers seemed to be a helluva lot smarter than Sony. The PS2 is like paying to bring home a bad 3D arcade, and every once in awhile you need to pay for another in order to keep on playing, almost like paying a phone bill or internet service provider. :thumb-dn:


what the hell was i supposed to do then, icarus? buy another system for 200 bucks?

gearhound ~ "the PS2 isn't the worst console ever released... that is completely absurd. we all know that prestigious award goes to the 3DO."

While 3DO may suck ass, Phillips CD-i must be even worse.



the CD-i sucks so bad it doesn't even count as a console.

THE ICHI
08-07-2004, 06:37 PM
The best fighting game is King of Fighter 98. :love: The SNK fighters in capcom vs. SNK is lame :irked: My Saturn lists is the best :spinface:

And the PS2 is the worst, but I like RPGs and PS2 have them all. sigh :sweat:

Joe Redifer
08-07-2004, 06:47 PM
Deathstroke - You cannot fix low resolution graphics with S-video. That will just make the lack of resolution even more apparent. The difference between playing capcom fighters in RGB and S-video is huge. You can easily see how blocky the fighters are in RGB.

I agree that the CD-i does not count as a console.

And yes, Sony is counting on people to buy new systems when the originals die. That's how they increase their profits. So yes, you were supposed to buy a new system for $200. You have angered Sony.

gearhound
08-07-2004, 06:55 PM
The best fighting game is King of Fighter 98. :love: The SNK fighters in capcom vs. SNK is lame :irked: My Saturn lists is the best :spinface:



i don't think so. KoF 2002 is better. so they are lame because they have different animations?

KoF 2002 is awesome.
. You have angered Sony.

:8):



And the PS2 is the worst, but I like RPGs and PS2 have them all. sigh :sweat:

not all of them :)

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 06:56 PM
i don't think so. KoF 2002 is better. so they are lame because they have different animations?

KoF 2002 is awesome.


:8):

no because a lot of their moves are missing

gearhound
08-07-2004, 06:58 PM
no because a lot of their moves are missing

YES, YOU ARE CORRECT... but it's still cool, IMO.

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 07:04 PM
YES, YOU ARE CORRECT... but it's still cool, IMO.
was I ever incorrect?

gearhound
08-07-2004, 07:33 PM
was I ever incorrect?

did I imply that you were? NO.

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 07:39 PM
did I imply that you were? NO.
did I imply that you implied that I was ever incorrect? NO

gearhound
08-07-2004, 08:15 PM
did I imply that you implied that I was ever incorrect? NO

um... did i ever imply that you implied that i implied that you were incorrect? NO... i mean YES. i am confused...
did I imply that you implied that I was ever incorrect? NO

it sure seemed that way.

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 08:19 PM
um... did i ever imply that you implied that i implied that you were incorrect? NO... i mean YES. i am confused...


it sure seemed that way.

why the hell would you quote me 2 times?

gearhound
08-07-2004, 08:21 PM
why the hell would you quote me 2 times?

why the hell not? are you highly offended? :yikes:

naruto_sensei
08-07-2004, 08:23 PM
why the hell not? are you highly offended?





lol

no I'm just highly honored! :crying:
thank you! its people like you that make the world a better place
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

gearhound
08-07-2004, 09:06 PM
that's why i am here... (yeah right)

Icarus4578
08-08-2004, 02:59 AM
gearhound ~ "axelay is the best shooter ever.

the saturn is a wonderful machine"

Indeed. Indeed.

gearhound ~ "what the hell was i supposed to do then, icarus? buy another system for 200 bucks?"

Hell no. I'd demand a refund or a new console if that was the case. Personally, I've been intimidating my PS2 by placing a DVD of Jack Frost next to it. Thus far, it's getting the message not to try anything funny with me because I'm a man of action.

Drunken Savior
08-08-2004, 05:35 AM
Which Jack Frost?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116671/
-or-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141109/

Actually, they both suck. At least the first one would be entertaining and fun to scar children with. Even Batman can't save the second...

Icarus4578
08-08-2004, 05:43 AM
The second one. Michael Keaton as the snowman is enough to send shivers down a grown man's spine, though that other Jack Frost is also menacing in its own way.

folken001
08-08-2004, 11:30 PM
Deathstroke - You cannot fix low resolution graphics with S-video. That will just make the lack of resolution even more apparent. The difference between playing capcom fighters in RGB and S-video is huge. You can easily see how blocky the fighters are in RGB.


They are blocky on DC to begin with. I don't see much differences between DC and PS2 version of CvS2. Capcom used old sprites and what do you expect?

CvS2 looks hella better on S-video though...

j_factor
08-09-2004, 01:08 AM
eh. I said "*stops elitism*" because it was an elitist comment. The PS2 version of Capcom vs. SNK 2 is fine if you're not picky. Those of us that are picky, and absolutely insist on owning the very best version of each game available, will stick with the DC version (is there any reason at all to pick the PS2 version over the DC version? no, unless you really love the PS2 controller). The PS2 version has slightly uglier sprites and is missing a couple frames of animation, not to mention that the controls are simply better suited to the DC controller.

Kwestone
08-09-2004, 04:49 AM
maddox gets a word in to (http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=video_games)

I should purchase a Saturn..I heard that it overheats very easily though...


Saturn in one of the most reliable systems out there... its built like a tank.

Icarus4578
08-09-2004, 11:12 AM
Got that right. Mine works beautifully and was purchased back when Sega launched it earlier than Saturn Day.

folken001
08-09-2004, 03:45 PM
eh. I said "*stops elitism*" because it was an elitist comment. The PS2 version of Capcom vs. SNK 2 is fine if you're not picky. Those of us that are picky, and absolutely insist on owning the very best version of each game available, will stick with the DC version (is there any reason at all to pick the PS2 version over the DC version? no, unless you really love the PS2 controller). The PS2 version has slightly uglier sprites and is missing a couple frames of animation, not to mention that the controls are simply better suited to the DC controller.

Well, DC is dead. Perfect port of gGXX and SF3 are now on PS2. And, I looooove dual shock. DC's controller is a lot like Xbox's and I dislike both of them. I think I'll just play them on ps2 instead of DC.

Icarus4578
08-09-2004, 04:38 PM
Out of the current three consoles, the PS2 has the best controller. (Wow, I gave Sony a positive remark. Has Hell frozen over?) :annoyed:

naruto_sensei
08-09-2004, 04:43 PM
I've always wondered if those things when you finish a match in art of fighting 3were handdrawn or if they were done with the help of CG

Icarus4578
08-09-2004, 04:47 PM
They look hand drawn to me.

naruto_sensei
08-09-2004, 04:50 PM
ya it must just be SNK's talent, even the movements of the characters in battle was very fluid

Icarus4578
08-09-2004, 05:27 PM
SNK = 2D gods. And Sony is stupid for pissing them off.

naruto_sensei
08-09-2004, 05:30 PM
SNK = 2D gods. And Sony is stupid for pissing them off.

SNK and sony get along fine... it was the SCEA

Icarus4578
08-09-2004, 05:47 PM
Yeah, but that's still Sony.

naruto_sensei
08-09-2004, 05:55 PM
Yeah, but that's still Sony.
well they did make up later... metal slug 3,4-5 kof 2002-2003 and SVC chaos are coming out soon for the PS2 in north america

gearhound
08-09-2004, 07:30 PM
SVC chaos are coming out soon for the PS2 in north america

big deal. i would rather play a MUCH better fighter like KoF 2002.

gearhound
08-09-2004, 07:45 PM
gearhound ~ "what the hell was i supposed to do then, icarus? buy another system for 200 bucks?"

Hell no. I'd demand a refund or a new console if that was the case. Personally, I've been intimidating my PS2 by placing a DVD of Jack Frost next to it. Thus far, it's getting the message not to try anything funny with me because I'm a man of action.

my warranty expired.

naruto_sensei
08-09-2004, 07:48 PM
big deal. i would rather play a MUCH better fighter like KoF 2002.

I'm not that exited about SVc chaos either, that's why I mentioned it last. maybe you cut up my post on purpose just to make me look bad, huh? I'm very dissapointed in you :(

gearhound
08-09-2004, 08:48 PM
that wasn't my intention.

i'm really not that mean.

naruto_sensei
08-10-2004, 12:51 AM
that's ok gearhound it happens to all of us...

dethforce
08-11-2004, 06:34 PM
No, you're the one bullsh*tting. All of those games are possible on Dreamcast, even if a little bit of detail would be lost. Again, you cannot prove that there's anything that makes the PS2 a distinct console which has software that cannot be replicated elsewhere.

possible on dreamcast - dont make me laughing all the time.

the dc was on his limit with games like msr and skies of arcardia - no comparsion to gran tuismo 3 and final fantasy x.

Oh? As opposed to all of that great software on PS2? :rolleyes:

there is more original software on ps2 than on dc. there wouldnt be also anymore originola games - look at all the pc crap.

Look - you're comparing a different style of racer. Yeah, it's no GT, but then again it doesn't have to be. And Sega didn't have the liberty of time and the kind of resources that Polyphony Digital could pull together with Sony's massive budgeting. Furthermore, developers have been developing on PS2 architecture for much longer by now than the Dreamcast. Therefore, the games obviously look improved over older software. It's the same case with every system.

msr was sega`s big budget racer and it was fine (at this time, but also like sega gt it cimply could not competete with the king of racing. the racetracks were boring in msr.

PS2warrior
08-12-2004, 12:04 AM
PS2 Rooooooooooooooccccccccccccccccccccccccccccckkkkkk kkkkkkkkkkkkkssssssssssssss the WORLD :kill: :kill: :kill: :kill:

Joe Redifer
08-12-2004, 12:46 AM
With posts like the one right above mine, it makes me think less and less of the PS2.

Decado
08-12-2004, 01:56 AM
With posts like the one right above mine, it makes me think less and less of the PS2. And a post like that makes me think less of you. :annoyed:

Seriously, why should that post have any effect whatsoever on your opinion of the PS2? Does all the trolling from GCN fanboys on this thread make you think the GCN sucks?

Pretty sad. :thumbdn:

Joe Redifer
08-12-2004, 04:08 AM
Sometimes. When fans represent their favored system in such an idiotic fashion (and tons of them do quite often, with zero actual intelligent things to say), it makes me feel like PS2 owners are made of of such people. Maybe I should have said "Makes me think less of PS2 fanboys" though I don't think highly of fanboys for any system. Of course with comments like the one I was referring to, it just makes all of videogamedom look bad.

PS - I don't care what you think of me. Why should I?

j_factor
08-12-2004, 05:50 AM
the dc was on his limit with games like msr and skies of arcardia

Where do you get this idea? The games came out when the system was less than 2 years old, in Japan. To put things in perspective, when Genesis was that old, Strider and Shadow Dancer came out for it; when Playstation was that old, Crash Bandicoot and Jet Moto were released. Compare the aforementioned Genesis games, which were released when Genesis was as old as Dreamcast was when MSR and SoA were released, to efforts such as Vectorman 2, Sonic 3D Blast, The Lost World, and Toy Story. Surely you agree that those games look better, that the system improved graphically well beyond what it was showing when the hardware was 2 years old? Now compare the aforementioned Playstation games, which were released when Playstation was as old as Dreamcast was when MSR and SoA were released, to efforts such as Vagrant Story, Medal of Honor Underground, Chrono Cross, and Striker Pro 2000. Surely you agree again that those games look better, that the system improved graphically well beyond what it was showing when the hardware was 2 years old?
Given this, how does one conclude that it's somehow different for Dreamcast, and, in fact, the hardware reached the peak of its abilities when it had been out for less than 2 years in Japan, just because the system died an early death?
Furthermore, Metropolis Street Racer and Skies of Arcadia aren't even the best graphics of what is available for Dreamcast. Later games in the system's library continued to improve graphically. Virtua Tennis 2, NBA 2K2, Headhunter, Heavy Metal: Geomatrix, and Shenmue 2 all looked great for their time and significantly improved on the standards set by Metropolis Street Racer, Skies of Arcadia, and other games released around that time.

Maybe I've overanalyzed this, and I should've simply noted that you were talking out your ass. Ah well.

Icarus4578
08-12-2004, 12:08 PM
dethforce ~ "the dc was on his limit with games like msr and skies of arcardia - no comparsion to gran tuismo 3 and final fantasy x."

Crock of sh*t. Those games are possible on Dreamcast, even though there'd be a loss of graphic quality. So what? They're still fully possible to realize on the DC. Sorry if the truth hurts. And who says that the DC has seen its peak performance? It has a lot of life left in it yet which unfortunately we'll probably never see.

dethforce ~ "there is more original software on ps2 than on dc. there wouldnt be also anymore originola games - look at all the pc crap"

Hold up--so you're comparing a system that only lived for, what, 2 & 1/2-3 years to a console which is still going and with far more third-party support? Even so, the DC has a higher quality/crap ratio than the PS2 does. Whereas the DC is at around 1:5 or so, the PS2 is about 1:50. So suck on that.

dethforce ~ "msr was sega`s big budget racer and it was fine (at this time, but also like sega gt it cimply could not competete with the king of racing. the racetracks were boring in msr."

Your point being....?

Joe Redifer ~ "PS - I don't care what you think of me. Why should I?"

Bravo. :cool:

gabriel
08-12-2004, 12:15 PM
Considering none of us here are Sega hardware engineers anything said about the Dreamcast's technical details will be largely/entirely bullpoop (damn censor...).

That said, I heard that Sega always intended for the DC to be a short-term solution, and because of this made it very easy to access the DC's full potential. So, basically, it's like a car with high acceleration, but low top speed, unlike the way most systems are made.

Notice how Soul Calibur remained, arguably, the best looking game on the system, despite being a launch title.

Icarus4578
08-12-2004, 12:21 PM
If that's the way you feel. I personally think that Shenmue 1 & 2 look better than Soul Calibur, although they don't animate as well.

Decado
08-12-2004, 02:40 PM
PS - I don't care what you think of me. Why should I? Don't really care if you do or not, but I was making a point and it worked. Mission complete. Yay.

Vert1
08-12-2004, 02:49 PM
There is a huge difference between what that guy said and what "GC trolls" have said here.If that guy was a Nintendo fan he'd be giving Nintendo fans a bad name as he is to PS2 fans.

That's the point.

j_factor
08-12-2004, 03:50 PM
It should be noted that Sega's original Dreamcast figures provided in 1998 said the system was capable of "over 3 million" polys/sec, and they have never been quoted as saying any other figure. However, games released towards the end of the system's short lifespan took it up to near 6 million, and a tech demo in late 2001 got the system doing slightly over 8 million polys/sec with multiple effects turned on. And even then the hardware was only 3 years old, so clearly the system had more juice to give.

I remember back in 1997, a few people were saying that Playstation had already been pushed to its limit, and the system couldn't handle a port of Quake. That's why Quake was only being ported to Saturn and N64, because only those systems could handle a good port of the game. Two years later, Playstation got a port of Quake II that wasn't half-bad.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 09:06 AM
I joined this forum just to set the idiot who started this thread straight, its obvious a lot of people in this forum have very little to no knowledge about the technical aspects of these consoles.

First I want to say you idiots give us Nintendo fans a bad rep, you should kill yourselves and let us watch in pleasure.

The Dreamcast was a 1.4 gigaflop system but the DC was very unique, it was incredibly weak compared to the PS2 but thanks to a neat trick it had the ability to only render the polygons actually visible and compress 20 - 25 MB of textures into it?s 8 MB of video RAM allows it to show highly detailed environments containing a large variety of textures & geometric detail with little effort.

With the Dreamcast rendering around 58 300 polygons on screen at 3 500 000 polygons per second giving a frame rate of 60 f.p.s. only around 2.2 MB of the Video RAM is used to store the polygons, where the other 5.8 MB is free for texturing & the display.

The Dreamcast doesnt display anywhere near the the 75 000 000 polygons per second which is the peak rate for the PS2 but the PS2 also has limits on texture memory, whereas the DC has 5.8MB for texturing the PS2 doesnt have any memory for texturing.

The DC wasnt a console made for short term but the fact was when it was released it was tied, Direct-X was there to make sure the software was ran on the DC the way it was meant to be and the graphics were superb, they took a blend of texturing and mixed it with low polygons, it was breathtaking but that was as far as the DC was going in graphical terms unfortunately, the DC was a dual 64-bit machine, the only 128-bit console is still the PS2.

The DC was a great console, unfortunately it didnt stay around long enough but by no means was it a short term solution.

The GC is a great console, copper heatsinks, it was a good build and very reliable, in terms of power its pushing 2.4 gigaflops.

The GC isnt a spectacularly powerful console, its built around a nice theory, the flipper as the GPU and a RISC processor, the design is just genius, it was the best built console this gen no doubt.

With what the GC has it isnt a particularly powerful console, the GPU was custom built to pump out heavy texturing, it has a low polycount but makes up for it through textures, a lot of the games look very colorful, it was built to be colorful and nicefully fullfills its mission.

The Xbox is a Celeron 2/Pentium 3 hybrid.

It has a 700MHz 32-bit CPU which is capable of pushing upto 2.93 gigaflops.

The processor inside the box does not say "Pentium III" anywhere. It simply reads "Intel". The XBox's processor is NOT an Intel Pentium III, as Microsoft would have you believe, but in fact a Celeron II. It is a 700mhz Celeron, complete with 128kb of L2 cache (P3 coppermines actually have 256kb L2 cache), but overclocked to a 133mhz FSB, resulting in PIII/Celeron hybrid. What makes it a Celeron II is the fact that it is still using a Coppermine Core, with 8 way set associative L2 cache rather than your typical Celeron 4 way set Level 2 cache. What it ultimately comes down to is that this Coppermine core, which allows Microsoft to market the XBox as a PIII Coppermine, is about a 10% speed increase over the Celeron equivalent of this processor. Is the XBox CPU a Celeron? Not really. Is it a Pentium III CPU in the sense that everyone thinks of a PIII Coppermine? Nope. It's somewhere in between

Most remember the 4.0 GPixels on Microsoft's spec comparence sheet. Well, Microsoft was nice to include a "(anti-aliased)" next to it. What does "4.0 GPixels (anti-aliased)", mean? It's misleading. The Xbox has hardwired 4x FSAA, when this is turned on the actual total of 1.0 GPixels is re-rendered 4 times to remove aliasing. Another possible reason for Microsoft to say Xbox's fill-rate is 4 GPixels per second. Is that the 1 GPixels is with 2 texture layers, if it is NOT used Xbox would not gain any performance and if it is used Xbox wouldn't lose any performance. It remains 1.0 GPixels w/ 2 textures, so what MS possibly did was it doubled the fill rate twice.

The NV2a in the Xbox has 4 pixel units running at 250 MHz, that's 1 billion pixels/second.

Now let's take Microsoft's alleged pixel fill rate of 4000 Million, which MS has on it's spec sheet and divide it by 32, you get, yes you guessed it, 125 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second. Here's the problem, the NV2a doesn't have a 4000 M fill rate but a 1000 M fill rate. So it's 31 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second, the Xbox maxes out at 31 million polygons per second.

Is the XBox graphics chip the same as a GeForce 3 card? Not quite. The NV2A chip that powers the XBox is quite similar to the GeForce 3, but isn't quite a GeForce 3. The GeForce 3 is a 64mb card with 350mhz RAMDAC. The XBox's NV2A is a card that SHARES it's memory with the XBox's system RAM and has a 250mhz RAMDAC. The NV2A compensates for this by having a Second Vertex Shader, as opposed by the GeForce 3's single vertex shader. However, Microsoft claims that this second vertex shader instantly bumps the XBox's theoretical max poly count from the 31 million that Nvidia lists for the GeForce 3, all the way up to 125 million pps which is bull****.

The area that will actually see the most improvement from the second VS is Bump Mapping(which is EXTENSIVELY used in games such as Halo).

Xbox is more powerful than the DC and GC so lets compare it to the PS2:

Data bus, cache memory as well as all registers are 128 bits on the PS2 CPU while the XBox CPU is 32 bits.
It has a maximum performance of 6.2GFLOPS while the XBox CPU can only do 2.93 GFLOPS.
It incorporates two 64-bit integer units (IU) with a 128-bit SIMD multi-media command unit, two independent floating-point vector calculation units (VU0, VU1), an MPEG 2 decoder circuit (Image Processing Unit/IPU) and high performance DMA controllers. Yes, this is all ON THE EMOTION ENGINE ITSELF!

The PS2 actually has 4 FPU units with a seperate GPU and VPU, it even has an IPU.

The Emotion Engine ALONE outpowers the entire Xbox!

Now to the Graphics, the XBox uses an Nvidia Graphics Processing Unit running at 250MHz and the PS2 uses the Graphics Synthesizer running at 150MHz. Again, judging by these specs the XBox looks better. The XBox GPU has a few advantages (or maybe not) over the PS2 GS, for example:

-The XBox GPU has a max. Resolution of 1920x1080 and the PS2 GS can do 1280x1024 The rest of the graphics chip will be comparable to NV-20 chip, there are a lot of neat effects the XBox GPU can do with its hardware, but all those effects can be done by the Emotion Engine in software too (while the XBox' CPU is not powerful enough to do complex visual effects in software).

But the catch is that these advantages (talking about higher resolutions here) don't make a lot of difference on a TV screen, even on an HDTV screen the difference would be barely noticeable (when the console's hardware is used properly).

So, is the XBox Graphics Processing Unit better than the PS2 GS? It doesn't look like it, the architecture of the PS2 GS looks far more advanced. For example, PS2 has a parallel rendering engine that contains a 2,560-bit wide data bus that is 20 times the size of leading PC-based graphics accelerators. The Graphics Synthesizer architecture can execute recursive multi-pass rendering processing and filter operations at a very fast speed without the assistance of the main CPU or main bus access. In the past, this level of real-time performance was only achieved when using very expensive, high performance, dedicated graphics workstations. There is a 48-Gigabyte/sec memory access bandwidth achieved via the integration of the pixel logic and the video memory on a single high performance chip. The quality of the resulting screen image is comparable to high quality pre-rendered 3D graphics. (that is once the game developers have learned how to use it properly) There has also been a misunderstanding about the VideoRAM on the PS2. The VRAM is included in the 32MB of main RAM on the CPU (the developer chooses how much of it he wants to dedicate to VRAM). Everyone thought the 4MB of memory on the GS was the VRAM while that is just a buffer in which all the rendering is done so no external bandwidth is needed (only for texture streaming).

The NV2a in the Xbox has 4 pixel units running at 250 MHz, that's 1 billion pixels/second. While the GS in the PS2 has 16 pixel units running at 150 MHz, which is 2.4 billion pixels every second.

Now let's talk about polygons. Right here I'm talking about polygon rendering and not polygon transformations. To calculate polygon rendering performance, you take the pixel fill rate, and write it in millions. So PS2s pixel fill rate is 2400 Million. When Sony says polygons, it is referring to 32 pixel polygons. Divide 2400 Million by 32. You get 75 Million (32-pixel) polygons per second. That is raw and doesn't include textures, they use up pixels also.

Compare that to the Xbox's 31 million polygons per second, its obvious who is better here.

So I hear you asking where does the PS2 shine in graphics the GC, DC and Xbox have been better than it for years and I dont think anybody can argue the GC, DC and Xbox have gave the PS2 a run for years now graphics wise but heres what everybodies missing, the PS2 is nearly impossible to program for, in fact I remember the original Timesplitters used only 7% of the PS2's peak power, in fact the buffer has never been used fully, it is being utilized only 50% in MGS3, the new line of games which I will post pictures of still dont utilize the PS2's power fully, the game you will see below(Gran Turismo 4) looks amazing yet uses only 75% of the PS2's power and Ace Combat 5 and the other games I will post pictures of use even less.

Heres what IGN.com said about Metal Gear Solid 3 after playing it at E3:

Snake Eater promises a complex plot and vivid music score to rival a Hollywood blockbuster, along with and realistic graphics and high-definition sound that will take the series to new heights.

http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/images/mag/Features/Pictures/0001750,04.jpeg

http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/images/mag/Features/Pictures/0001750,02.jpeg

Heres what Gamespot said about Ace Combat 5 after playing it at E3:

First off, Ace Combat 5 looks beautiful. By looking at the trailer and screenshots you'd have every right to be skeptical of whether it's representative of the game's actual good looks. But try to imagine graphics of that quality also running at a silky smooth 60 frames per second and you'll have an idea of how this game actually looks. The plane models--we specifically got to try out the F/A-18 and the F-14 fighters--look stunningly realistic and feature fully articulated parts as well as most excellent afterburner and heat-wash effects. Weapon effects are great, too. There are missile contrails that streak across the sky, as well as visible damage to planes that have been hit that eventually catch fire and come crashing down to earth. Environments look wonderful, as well. Fly dangerously low to the ground and you can clearly make out individual trees on the horizon.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen005.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen007.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen014.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen015.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen016.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/03/25/acecombat5/acecombat5_screen008.jpg

And my favourite, Gran Turismo 4:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/ps2_granturismo4/0513/ps2_gt40513_5pm_screen003.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/ps2_granturismo4/0513/ps2_gt40513_5pm_screen001.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/0513b/ps2granturismo4_screen014.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/0513b/ps2granturismo4_screen007.jpg

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 09:36 AM
You prove your idiocy Makaveli_786, or should I say 'Blatant Sony Fanboy'. The PS2 can push 66,000,000 flat-shaded polygons. With all effects turned on it's at around 10-12 million. That's not a quantum leap over the Dreamcast at all.

Next time keep your mouth shut lest you want me to call out your BS.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 09:42 AM
16 pixel pipe lines X 150MHz clock speed=2400 pixels

2400 pixels/32 pixel polygons=75 million pps.

LOL do the math you idiot.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 09:47 AM
Sony even said themselves that the PS2 couldn't push 75 million. They had to reduce the specs a bit to cut down on manufacturing costs. Apparently, economizing the manufacturing costs = shoddy hardware that breaks easily. On a not-so-seperate note, I heard a report that somebody dropped a PSP and it shattered into pieces. :haha: And that is gonna cost $400-500!? What a piece of junk. Sony obviously knows nothing about durability. Then again, they don't care.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 09:53 AM
Sony even said themselves that the PS2 couldn't push 75 million. They had to reduce the specs a bit to cut down on manufacturing costs. Apparently, economizing the manufacturing costs = shoddy hardware that breaks easily. On a not-so-seperate note, I heard a report that somebody dropped a PSP and it shattered into pieces. :haha: And that is gonna cost $400-500!? What a piece of junk. Sony obviously knows nothing about durability. Then again, they don't care.

LOL so how does it render 66 million polygons, when you do the math you see otherwise, give me a link to where they reduced the PS2 by 9 million polygons to save money(LMFAO).

I'd love to see how they can reduce the amount of polygons by a tenth and save money :D

LOL I see you avoided the entire post, I guess it doesnt feel good being tore a new ******* by a newbie, by the way who dropped a PSP, there was only ONE prototype and that was at E3, it was stalled on a mount and it isnt going to cost 400-500 dollars again, its going to sell at a loss but make profit on software, wheres that report too?

Your an idiot son, you should just bow your head in shame and leave.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 10:01 AM
http://www.gamecrazy.com/ps2/faq.aspx

What does this say? Oh yeah.... "Super Computer
With a floating point calculation performance of 6.2 GFLOPS/second, the overall calculation performance of this new CPU matches that of a super computer. When applied to the processing of geometric and perspective transformations normally used in the calculation of 3D computer graphics (3DCG), the peak calculation performance reaches 66 million polygons per second."

Furthermore, you're trying to argue by comparing flat-shaded polygons on the PS2 to the fully textured polygons on the Dreamcast~

"With the Dreamcast rendering around 58 300 polygons on screen at 3 500 000 polygons per second giving a frame rate of 60 f.p.s. only around 2.2 MB of the Video RAM is used to store the polygons, where the other 5.8 MB is free for texturing & the display.

The Dreamcast doesnt display anywhere near the the 75 000 000 polygons per second which is the peak rate for the PS2 but the PS2 also has limits on texture memory, whereas the DC has 5.8MB for texturing the PS2 doesnt have any memory for texturing."

If you think the PS2 is capable of pushing 75 million textured polygons per second then you're living in dreamland.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 10:06 AM
http://www.gamecrazy.com/ps2/faq.aspx

What does this say? Oh yeah.... "Super Computer
With a floating point calculation performance of 6.2 GFLOPS/second, the overall calculation performance of this new CPU matches that of a super computer. When applied to the processing of geometric and perspective transformations normally used in the calculation of 3D computer graphics (3DCG), the peak calculation performance reaches 66 million polygons per second."

Furthermore, you're trying to argue by comparing flat-shaded polygons on the PS2 to the fully textured polygons on the Dreamcast~

"With the Dreamcast rendering around 58 300 polygons on screen at 3 500 000 polygons per second giving a frame rate of 60 f.p.s. only around 2.2 MB of the Video RAM is used to store the polygons, where the other 5.8 MB is free for texturing & the display.

The Dreamcast doesnt display anywhere near the the 75 000 000 polygons per second which is the peak rate for the PS2 but the PS2 also has limits on texture memory, whereas the DC has 5.8MB for texturing the PS2 doesnt have any memory for texturing."

If you think the PS2 is capable of pushing 75 million textured polygons per second then you're living in dreamland.

Your OWN link says:

Maximum Polygon Rate: 75 Million Polygons Per Second at the bottom of the page you idiot, 66 million is the amount of 3D CGG Transformations, read the bottom of the link that YOU provided where it displays the specs.

No matter what way you compare the PS2 has more polygonal muscle than the DC, even an idiot like you would understand that.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 11:34 AM
Your still comparing apples to oranges. The Dreamcast can handle 6-8 million polygons while the PS2 can do about double that amount. But even so, nobody can prove that there's a game that's on the PS2 that cannot be made for the DC, lesser graphics or not.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 11:56 AM
Your still comparing apples to oranges. The Dreamcast can handle 6-8 million polygons while the PS2 can do about double that amount. But even so, nobody can prove that there's a game that's on the PS2 that cannot be made for the DC, lesser graphics or not.

That wasnt my point, the DC was great for its time, it murdered PC's in cold blood, 1.4 gigaflops in 2000?

It was at least on par with PC's a year after its launch, in fact most PC's arent much more powerful than the PS2 right now, then they wonder why they cant emulate it.

Listen the fact is you were bashing these consoles when you dont know **** about them, the PS2, DC and GC are kick ass consoles and they all have revolutionary technology and believe me thats an understatement, the Xbox is a PC but no doubt a good buy for the price, personally I'd rather buy a PC but the new games coming to the Xbox which are exclusives make it a worthy buy especially for the price theyr selling it at now.

The fact is the PS2 is the most advanced console available by MILES, my AMD FX-53 and X800 XT PE is my baby but the PS2 raped all 8 computers I owned in the first 2 years of the PS2's launch and still kicks ass, look at the screenshots above, I still look back to the PS2 and Doom 3 doesnt look much better than some of the games soon to be on the PS2.

Each console has its own place, console bashing is weak, especially coming from guys who dont have much knowledge if any about these consoles and what went into them.

Nobody can honestly stand up and say Sony, Microsoft, Sega and Nintendo dont each deserve a place in the console race, if there was only one I'd prefer it be Sony but thats not the case so either display some facts or keep your mouth closed.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 12:05 PM
After you.

All you're doing is reiterating typical Sony favortism by bringing up false arguments to try and make out the PS2 to be far superior to the Dreamcast. And even if it could push 100 million fully textured polygons with light sourcing, gourad shading, etc. up the wazoo, it still doesn't change the fact that Sony is intentionally building their consoles with cheap components so that they'll break and need to be replaced.

laicher21
08-13-2004, 12:12 PM
i dont know, i think they are builidng them cheap so they dont have to spend as much money on production of the console. but it could be a two pronged attack, both are good for the company. more profits and more people that need to buy more ps2's

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 12:18 PM
After you.

All you're doing is reiterating typical Sony favortism by bringing up false arguments to try and make out the PS2 to be far superior to the Dreamcast. And even if it could push 100 million fully textured polygons with light sourcing, gourad shading, etc. up the wazoo, it still doesn't change the fact that Sony is intentionally building their consoles with cheap components so that they'll break and need to be replaced.

False arguments, why dont you point out the false part, your obviously an idiot, the link you provided yourself made an ass out of you, if your that stupid then surely theres no reasoning with you, I feel as if I'm Tyson in the ring with a handicapped dude, your a joke, now you pull back your argument and accept the PS2 is superior so your moving onto cheap components?

LOL Your a serious joke man, you make me laugh.

So lets see this cheap components crap, first when the PS2 launched it had a built in DVD player, it would have done as well without one but they decided to put it in anyway, if they didnt they would have made upto another 100 dollars of profit just being selfish, the Xbox prototype was annouced as having no DVD drive so it wasnt out of competition either that they put that in the final specs.

A MIPS 4000 processor, they were the most expensive processors going at the time of the PS2's launch, not only that though Sony had Toshiba tinker with it and that was one HALF of the PS2's interface.

VRAM isnt cheap either, Sony put in a 32MB buffer, compared to DC's 8MB, in fact Sony had 4MB onboard VRAM JUST to support textures.

It cost Sony hundreds of millions working out how to put the GS and EE onto one chip, furthermore when they put it on one chip they even decreased the size of that chip by about 40% and for what, the PSTwo which will sell for markedly less than the PS2?

Why not just sell the PS2 at 150 dollars and forget about the PSTwo which will sell for less and cost hundreds of millions to sell but NO Sony still go out of their way to make the PS2 80% smaller in the process spending hundreds of millions and the outcome... a smaller more convenient console which SELLS FOR LESS!

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 12:20 PM
That's obviously what's happening, and Sony doesn't intend to change things anytime soon. Back not so long ago, you could buy hardware such as CD players, VCRs, etc. without worrying about having to replace it within a couple of years. Nowadays, everything breaks down quickly and for no apparent reason. That's not a joke--this is just the corporates looking to milk consumers out of more cash than necessary, just because they're ultra-greedy bastards.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 12:22 PM
Keep blowing stats out of your ass Makaveli. It doesn't change the fact that Sony are corporate whores who build extremely non-durable hardware.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 12:27 PM
That's obviously what's happening, and Sony doesn't intend to change things anytime soon. Back not so long ago, you could buy hardware such as CD players, VCRs, etc. without worrying about having to replace it within a couple of years. Nowadays, everything breaks down quickly and for no apparent reason. That's not a joke--this is just the corporates looking to milk consumers out of more cash than necessary, just because they're ultra-greedy bastards.

Keyword being everything not just the PS2.. LOL why is it you keep going back on your comments, will you make your mind up already?

The reason things are breaking down easier is because of new technology, CRT TV's have been around for 50 years and are the most reliable while Plasma screens cost several times as much but dont last anywhere as long, its the same with Projectors, you get a 2000 hour lamp life before you have to replace the lamp but you still get a superior experience no matter what way you look at it.

MIPS processors arent used to being run too long and when you put so much stress on a MIPS processor its about to explode, especially when you take one and overclock it, no matter what way you look at it a MIPS isnt meant to be run for too long, thats why the PS2's give way.

The Xbox is built around PC's, we know how to maintain PC's as weve had them for years but the Xbox is full of errors which comes with modern day PC's.

The GC can run too hot, the copper heatsicks dont disperse the heat quick enough which means your GC can black out.

My DC once burnt out after I left it on overnight.

My PC had memory read errors after I overclocked it.

LOL all platforms have problems, quit your whining your looking pathetic.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 12:28 PM
Keep blowing stats out of your ass Makaveli. It doesn't change the fact that Sony are corporate whores who build extremely non-durable hardware.

LOL and it doesnt change the fact you just looked like an asswipe in front of every member of this board, nice talking to you :cool:

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 12:32 PM
Makaveli_786 ~ "My DC once burnt out after I left it on overnight."

Then that's your fault, not Sega's. My Dreamcast still works just fine. Why? Because I don't do things that would potentially damage it. When you buy a piece of hardware it's expected that you'll take care of it.

~ "Keyword being everything not just the PS2.. LOL why is it you keep going back on your comments, will you make your mind up already?"

There's a reason why the PS2 has a reputation for breaking, whereas a console such as the GC breaking down occurs far less often. It's how they build the hardware and what parts they use. Since Sony is obviously building their console with some cheap parts it naturally will have a much shorter life. I can still take my SNES, Genesis, TG16, etc. for a god and they perform wonderfully, and yet not the PS2?

True, many companies are building stuff that breaks easily, but Sony's doing it intentionally. Their excuse is that systems only last a couple of years anyway--that's the most absurd excuse that I've ever heard.

Icarus4578
08-13-2004, 12:36 PM
Makaveli_786 ~ "LOL and it doesnt change the fact you just looked like an asswipe in front of every member of this board, nice talking to you :cool:"

Is that so? Or are you just trying to play off the Sony fanbase, many of which have already admitted that their PS2s broke down on them?

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 12:43 PM
Then that's your fault, not Sega's. My Dreamcast still works just fine. Why? Because I don't do things that would potentially damage it. When you buy a piece of hardware it's expected that you'll take care of it.

When I left it overnight it wasnt jumpin hoops, I've left my PS2 on for 3 nights in a row and it didnt effect it at all.

There's a reason why the PS2 has a reputation for breaking, whereas a console such as the GC breaking down occurs far less often. It's how they build the hardware and what parts they use. Since Sony is obviously building their console with some cheap parts it naturally will have a much shorter life. I can still take my SNES, Genesis, TG16, etc. for a god and they perform wonderfully, and yet not the PS2?

Do you even have a PS2?

Firstly the best selling games on the PS2 have been among the lines of Final Fantasy, Kingdom of hearts, GTA series and Gran Turismo..

Now each of these games takes upto 250 hours of your life when pushed, thats 10 games that can occupy over 1000 hours of your life, in other words 20 days of you playing constantly, name 10 games on the SNES or Geneis which can keep you occupied for 1000 hours, the amount of time the PS2 sees action is phenomenal.

Trrue, many companies are building stuff that breaks easily, but Sony's doing it intentionally. Their excuse is that systems only last a couple of years anyway--that's the most absurd excuse that I've ever heard.

Its spelt true, by the way where can I find the link to where a Sony official or spokesman or even some drunk guy announced Sony are saying stuff only lasts a couple of years so lets intentionally build bad quality products.

Vert1
08-13-2004, 01:35 PM
Now each of these games takes upto 250 hours of your life when pushed, thats 10 games that can occupy over 1000 hours of your life, in other words 20 days of you playing constantly, name 10 games on the SNES or Geneis which can keep you occupied for 1000 hours, the amount of time the PS2 sees action is phenomenal.

This paragraph is hysterical.Games back than on Genesis and SNES probably wouldn't occupy you for such long periods of time of over 1000 hours(well unless you decided to let SF2 take over your life) but it's not about how lengthy a game is but how much quality a game holds.I will tell you right now the Genesis and SNES hold insane amounts of more quality than PS2.SNES and Genesis also have games that you can play over and over and they don't grow old unlike PS2 games.I wouldn't even say that's an opinon but pretty much a fact.Whatever though *insert sentence of I'll be playing these better games and you'll be playing those lame games here*

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 01:41 PM
This paragraph is hysterical.Games back than on Genesis and SNES probably wouldn't occupy you for such long periods of time of over 1000 hours(well unless you decided to let SF2 take over your life) but it's not about how lengthy a game is but how much quality a game holds.I will tell you right now the Genesis and SNES hold insane amounts of more quality than PS2.SNES and Genesis also have games that you can play over and over and they don't grow old unlike PS2 games.I wouldn't even say that's an opinon but pretty much a fact.Whatever though *insert sentence of I'll be playing these better games and you'll be playing those lame games here*

Well it depends on your interpretation of quality, last year Sony's software sales were 100 million so 100 million game buyers thought the PS2 games were of quality, the PS2 has under a 1000 games.

The NES on the other hand software sales of several million even thought it had nearly 9 times more games(8775).

To different people differrent games qualify as "quality", personally I'd take Gran Turismo, Grand Theft Auto, Killzone, Half Life 2, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts and the many other PS2 games over the majority of SNES games.

Vert1
08-13-2004, 01:59 PM
To different people differrent games qualify as "quality", personally I'd take Gran Turismo, Grand Theft Auto, Killzone, Half Life 2, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts and the many other PS2 games over the majority of SNES games.

This embodies all that has become twisted and wrong with todays industry.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 02:02 PM
This embodies all that has become twisted and wrong with todays industry.

LOL your a rather sad individual arent you? :)

gabriel
08-13-2004, 02:26 PM
So what if the PS2 is technically "miles" ahead of all systems when the actual games, you know, the ones you actually play, look noticeably worse than the competition?

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 02:27 PM
So what if the PS2 is technically "miles" ahead of all systems when the actual games, you know, the ones you actually play, look noticeably worse than the competition?

LOL either your blind or just daft but look at the above screenshots Mr. more-stupid-than-the-average-idiot

Dr. Bombay
08-13-2004, 03:49 PM
ACtually, saying you'd take a bunch of subpar games which can be finished in about 12 hours over the majority of the stellar SNES line up is simply foolhardy and little more than fanboy prattling.

And seeing as how it only takes about 48 hours to do everything there is any Final Fantasy game (The only reason it takes that long in 10 is because of the terribly unfun blitzball), I really can't see what you're spending the remaining 80 hours on. It only took me 26 hours in Kingdom Hearts to get every character to level 100 as well as get the best weapons and armors for everyone. I can't think of one PS2 game that takes more than 50 hours to complete in full. Maybe FF11, but that's an MMORPG and never truely ends.

Decado
08-13-2004, 04:17 PM
ACtually, saying you'd take a bunch of subpar games which can be finished in about 12 hours over the majority of the stellar SNES line up is simply foolhardy and little more than fanboy prattling. I think you'll looking at the SNES lineup with rose tinted glasses, but whatever. You have your opinion just like he has his. He's happy, leave it be (no need for name calling).

As for 12 hours...that's pretty standard for an action game. SNES/Genesis action games were a LOT shorter, if I recall correctly.

I can't think of one PS2 game that takes more than 50 hours to complete in full. What do you mean "in full"? You tried getting all the ending in Disgaea? If you did then in less than 50 hours I'm amazed.

BTW, how many Xbox and GCN games take more than 50 hours to complete?

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 04:41 PM
The GTA's too 50 hours each if you stuck to the missions and over 5 times that much if you explored and unlocked everything, fully completing the game took nuons, Final Fantasy XII, exploring everything can take upwards of a 1000 hours, you can build furniture, customize your house, join a gang, plant flowers and trees in your garden and pots inside your house.

If you can explore that game to it extents in 50 hours then your a world record breaker, congratulations :)

Takou
08-13-2004, 05:14 PM
The snes and genesis were miles above any console after them, thats a fact, not an opinion. The ps2 is more powerful than the dc but the gc and xbox are even more powerful, there isn't that much of a graphical difference between the gc and xbox either, the xbox is more susceptible to slowdown than the gc too.

Decado
08-13-2004, 05:20 PM
The snes and genesis were miles above any console after them, thats a fact, not an opinion. No, that is an opinion and can only be an opinion (that you're trying to pass off as fact).

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 05:33 PM
The snes and genesis were miles above any console after them, thats a fact, not an opinion. The ps2 is more powerful than the dc but the gc and xbox are even more powerful, there isn't that much of a graphical difference between the gc and xbox either, the xbox is more susceptible to slowdown than the gc too.

LOL in what aspects is it more powerful(cant wait to hear this :D ).

Takou
08-13-2004, 05:45 PM
No, that is an opinion and can only be an opinion (that you're trying to pass off as fact).


Its not my fault that there are people who can't see how much quality the snes and genesis has over todays consoles. Its a well known fact that more people have had more fun with the snes and genesis than the ps2, xbox, and gamcube, the majority rule wins.

LOL in what aspects is it more powerful(cant wait to hear this ).

What the hell are you talking about!? The xbox being more powerful than any other game console out right now? Take a look at this thread here and see for yourself. http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9132

Dr. Bombay
08-13-2004, 05:48 PM
LOL in what aspects is it more powerful(cant wait to hear this :D ).


...Yeah, it's clearly obvious that hte xbox is more powerful than the PS2. It just is. Everyone knows that.

Takou
08-13-2004, 06:05 PM
...Yeah, it's clearly obvious that hte xbox is more powerful than the PS2. It just is. Everyone knows that.


I hope thats what he was getting at.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 06:11 PM
Its not my fault that there are people who can't see how much quality the snes and genesis has over todays consoles. Its a well known fact that more people have had more fun with the snes and genesis than the ps2, xbox, and gamcube, the majority rule wins.



What the hell are you talking about!? The xbox being more powerful than any other game console out right now? Take a look at this thread here and see for yourself. http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9132


Notice it says in your post


Graphics
NVIDIA XGPU
233MHz
1.9G Texels/Sec
3.7G Samples/Sec
DX8 Shaders
80 GFLOPS
106M Vertices/Sec
Compression
FSAA
32-bit Color
6.4 GB/sec BusGraphics


LOL thats MS bull****ting to you, this is a C94 Cray Supercomputer, its 80 gigaflops,you think the GPU in the Xbox is as powerful as a Cray Supercomputer?

Heres a thread for the idiots who fell for it: http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=11597

Vert1
08-13-2004, 06:15 PM
You sure like to namecall a lot.I hope you get pwned by the respective people you've slandered or banned.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 06:16 PM
...Yeah, it's clearly obvious that hte xbox is more powerful than the PS2. It just is. Everyone knows that.

I measure power in gigaflops, a flop is short for floating point operations per second, whenever you do something with your computer your computer uses flops to work.

The more flops you have the more powerful your PC is, especially when it comes to graphics, the MOST powerful processor on the market is the AMD FX-53 but it only has a clockspeed of 2.4Ghz compared to the Pentium 4 EE's 3.6 GHz, so why is the FX-53 considered the most powerful CPU on the market?

Because it has more flops you idiot.

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 06:18 PM
You sure like to namecall a lot.I hope you get pwned by the respective people you've slandered or banned.

Sometimes the name calling is appropriate, idiot is a word I've used often in here but nobody knows what a gigaflop is, its the right down basics of graphics how can you argue graphics and not know what a gigaflop is, if that isnt an idiot then I dont know what is.

Takou
08-13-2004, 06:38 PM
Sometimes the name calling is appropriate, idiot is a word I've used often in here but nobody knows what a gigaflop is, its the right down basics of graphics how can you argue graphics and not know what a gigaflop is, if that isnt an idiot then I dont know what is.


Your the the only "idiot" that we see here Makiveli, so what if some people don't know what a flop is. That doesn't change the fact that you started out here trolling and name calling, you called Icarus, a very respectable member of these boards an idiot in your first post. You have done nothing but annoy many of the members here, I myself am pretty new to these boards but I didn't start by being an obnoxious *******. All your posts are just complete insults to all the members here and when some of the most respectable members here post very valid points and imformation, you try to shoot them down with idiotic and insulting posts.

Vert1
08-13-2004, 06:44 PM
If people thought the hostility before was bad I'd say it just doubled.

:yikes:

Makaveli_786
08-13-2004, 06:45 PM
Your the the only "idiot" that we see here Makiveli, so what if some people don't know what a flop is. That doesn't change the fact that you started out here trolling and name calling, you called Icarus, a very respectable member of these boards an idiot in your first post. You have done nothing but annoy many of the members here, I myself am pretty new to these boards but I didn't start by being an obnoxious *******. All your posts are just complete insults to all the members here and when some of the most respectable members here post very valid points and imformation, you try to shoot them down with idiotic and insulting posts.

LOL why did you avoid my last point, non of you respectable members have been able to dissect my obnoxious bull**** or prove me wrong so I don't see what your problem is, I can tell your an asswipe from your post, I mean you believe the Xbox GPU is 80 gigaflops, over 8 times as power as the latest PC's, thats not stupid?

LOL By the way its Makaveli, LOL I love it when people call somebody else an idiot but cant spell the simplest of words correctly :P

Takou
08-13-2004, 06:56 PM
Wow, I mispelled your name, there are tons of members here that have mispelled eachothers names and havnt been flamed. I see that its easy for you to start an argument over very small things, but guys with small ***** shouldn't talk so loud and bold, don't you think?

Decado
08-13-2004, 07:22 PM
Its not my fault that there are people who can't see how much quality the snes and genesis has over todays consoles. Its a well known fact that more people have had more fun with the snes and genesis than the ps2, xbox, and gamcube, the majority rule wins. LOL! :lol:

Vert1
08-13-2004, 07:25 PM
Decado is the only oddball that thought PS2 offered better experiences than every other console. :spinface:

Drunken Savior
08-13-2004, 07:32 PM
When the majority of the people believe an opinion, it doesn't become a fact.

Takou
08-13-2004, 07:33 PM
Decado is the only oddball that thought PS2 offered better experiences than every other console. :spinface:

That explains everything, I respect his love for the ps2, but the games this gen are just missing that charm that the old games had. Mojority still rules though Decado, too many have played old genesis and snes games to think highly of the ps2 or the xbox and gc.

gabriel
08-13-2004, 07:59 PM
LOL either your blind or just daft but look at the above screenshots Mr. more-stupid-than-the-average-idiot

How about games that you can actually play. Unless you live in the future, you cant actually play those.

Also, most of those screenshots arent gameplay footage, which drops their impressive-ness factor to about a zero.

Joe Redifer
08-13-2004, 08:58 PM
The PS2 may be the most powerful machine in theory (which means nothing), but it is the weakest system on my TV screen. The graphics are usually chunky when compared to the Xbox and Gamecube. It definitely seems slower than the other two. It can't do in game 5.1 surround sound (the best it can do is 4.0 DTS, which sounds like ass). Only a handfull of games are even in 480p, and NONE of them wander into 720p and 1080i. Where is this high resolution it's supposed to have? If it had that resolution, surely they could give us 720p. The pictures you posted are no big deal. Also notice ALL of the pics you posted are not actual in-game shots. I want to see screens of the actual game as it looks when it is being PLAYED, not during replays. Who cares about replays and external 3rd person cameras that are not used during actual gameplay? That's cheating. Also quite a few of the pictures you posted were high resolution renders. The actual gamescreens will be 640x480 and no higher. That's cheating.

You and Dreamkin would get along really well. Are you Dreamkin?

Dr. Bombay
08-14-2004, 12:47 AM
I think you'll looking at the SNES lineup with rose tinted glasses, but whatever. You have your opinion just like he has his. He's happy, leave it be (no need for name calling).

As for 12 hours...that's pretty standard for an action game. SNES/Genesis action games were a LOT shorter, if I recall correctly.

What do you mean "in full"? You tried getting all the ending in Disgaea? If you did then in less than 50 hours I'm amazed.

BTW, how many Xbox and GCN games take more than 50 hours to complete?

Ah, good point. The Nippon Ichi series does take more than 50 hours to complete in full. Corrected.

But at the same I think the same point is uddered. Disgaea, a game that was pretty much off the radar, is one of the few games that does take over 50 hours, and I doubt this Makaveli character will ever play it.

Dr. Bombay
08-14-2004, 12:49 AM
The GTA's too 50 hours each if you stuck to the missions and over 5 times that much if you explored and unlocked everything, fully completing the game took nuons, Final Fantasy XII, exploring everything can take upwards of a 1000 hours, you can build furniture, customize your house, join a gang, plant flowers and trees in your garden and pots inside your house.

If you can explore that game to it extents in 50 hours then your a world record breaker, congratulations :)

Final Fantasy 12? The game that isn't out yet? How would you know that? Even if you were at e3, which I highly doubt, You got to play 10 minutes tops.

Or are you psychic.

Icarus4578
08-14-2004, 01:36 AM
Joe, doesn't the PS2 also have the problem of having to put everything in one RAM sector? I had read somewhere awhile back about how the PS2 has to store everything in one place instead of being able to spread things across the hardware such as polygonal textures, CPU/AI instructions, physics, etc., and that it was easily the weakest of the current three (which is a known fact). Sorry that I'm not as into this technical jargon as some other people.

Makaveli_786 ~ "When I left it overnight it wasnt jumpin hoops, I've left my PS2 on for 3 nights in a row and it didnt effect it at all."

:haha: I think you're full of it.

~ "Do you even have a PS2?"

Obviously you haven't read anything in this thread. Otherwise, you'd know that I'm on my fourth PS2. What's sad is that I took great care of my former three yet they eventually self-destructed by either not reading discs or scratching them (I had to repurchase the Super Castlevania IV soundtrack; THaNKs SoNY!! :love: )

~ "Firstly the best selling games on the PS2 have been among the lines of Final Fantasy, Kingdom of hearts, GTA series and Gran Turismo.."

And isn't that just a shame?

~ "Now each of these games takes upto 250 hours of your life when pushed, thats 10 games that can occupy over 1000 hours of your life, in other words 20 days of you playing constantly, name 10 games on the SNES or Geneis which can keep you occupied for 1000 hours, the amount of time the PS2 sees action is phenomenal."

....Wow, you're a loser, aren't you? "250 hours??" "1,000 HOURS?!?" That's.... that's really something. You must not get out much.

~ "Its spelt true, by the way where can I find the link to where a Sony official or spokesman or even some drunk guy announced Sony are saying stuff only lasts a couple of years so lets intentionally build bad quality products."

Just because I made a small typo doesn't mean Jack. I write far more than most other forum members (not that that makes me better than anybody else) and I rarely make mistakes. Don't even try starting this kind of war with me because I'll destroy you.

~ "Well it depends on your interpretation of quality, last year Sony's software sales were 100 million so 100 million game buyers thought the PS2 games were of quality, the PS2 has under a 1000 games."

Are you a retard? If a console sells 100 million units of software in a year (which I don't buy for a second) then that does not mean that 100 million individual gamers bought 100 million individual pieces of software. There isn't even that many PS2s manufactured. Sony has an installed user-base of about 35-40 million worldwide (yes, I know that Sony likes to fudge their user-base figures, but that's what happens when you're a lying corporation).

Vert1 ~ "Games back than on Genesis and SNES probably wouldn't occupy you for such long periods of time of over 1000 hours(well unless you decided to let SF2 take over your life) but it's not about how lengthy a game is but how much quality a game holds.I will tell you right now the Genesis and SNES hold insane amounts of more quality than PS2.SNES and Genesis also have games that you can play over and over and they don't grow old unlike PS2 games.I wouldn't even say that's an opinon but pretty much a fact.Whatever though *insert sentence of I'll be playing these better games and you'll be playing those lame games here*"

I believe that's true Vert1, and I also believe that most every member agrees with that assessment, whether or not they're willing to admit it.

Takou ~ The snes and genesis were miles above any console after them, thats a fact, not an opinion. The ps2 is more powerful than the dc but the gc and xbox are even more powerful, there isn't that much of a graphical difference between the gc and xbox either, the xbox is more susceptible to slowdown than the gc too."

Let's not leave out the Saturn. :P:thumb-up:

Decado
08-14-2004, 01:57 AM
That explains everything, I respect his love for the ps2, but the games this gen are just missing that charm that the old games had. Mojority still rules though Decado, too many have played old genesis and snes games to think highly of the ps2 or the xbox and gc. I played them too. However, I have this amazing ability to separate the past from the present :P

naruto_sensei
08-14-2004, 02:20 AM
I don't see how games like GTA are not as good as those sega/SNES ones, I know mario/sonic/chronotrigger/whatever are charming but I think you people are overrating them a little (and before I thought the GTA games were overrated) those games were awsome, but the games of today are not as bad as you guys say either.

Black Jesus
08-14-2004, 04:41 AM
I don't see how games like GTA are not as good as those sega/SNES ones, I know mario/sonic/chronotrigger/whatever are charming but I think you people are overrating them a little (and before I thought the GTA games were overrated) those games were awsome, but the games of today are not as bad as you guys say either.

in my opinion, the only reason games seemed so great back in the day is because we really wernt expecting as much out of them as we are now...gaming has gone so far in the last 7 to 10 years its almost frightning. nowadays, with all the technology we have at our fingertips, i think we expect a little too much out of games and set our hopes too high, especially when a metriod prime or game of 5 star caliber that you only get once every 2-3 years sets the standards for all other games not just in its catagory, but sometimes for an entire console alone...

also, i think that games back in the day were some of our first gaming experiences, and thats where the 'Charm' comes from, because we grew up with them like old friends....u know that feeling u get the first time u beat super metroid and saved that bird thingy, or sat up for 4-5 hour's trying to beat M.Bison on match number 75... then u finally beat him... with like an 8th of a precent of energy left, with a fireball that u just KNOW wont pop out in time, while he's coming at you with a pshyco crusher that u just KNOW he's just goung to smash u with because...well...he's done it on about 964340 other occasions...feelings that that u never have again...

Drunken Savior
08-14-2004, 04:51 AM
I had more fun playing Red Dead Revolver than 90% of the games where I've been subjected to endless previews, hype, videos, images, the whole shebang. Same thing with KOTOR. I know the internet has spoiled a lot of games for me.

Joe Redifer
08-14-2004, 05:07 AM
I don't know about the PS2's RAM issue. All I know is that developers constantly complain about how little RAM there is just like they did with the PS1 and like they are already doing with the proposed PS3 specs. Sony just cut the RAM for the PS3 in half. GREAT MOVE!

Icarus4578
08-14-2004, 12:15 PM
Heh, a really smart move by Sony. Then again, if they can somehow get an A-list of titles on their next console then that's all that matters in the end. However, I have severe doubts after PS2, not that there haven't been any high-quality games for it, just nowhere near as many as I would've expected.

As for holding the past in too high a regard, I'm sorry but the difference is plainly obvious to me--I know how much better the previous systems were because I felt the difference as an individual. I wish that game companies would all stop trying to adhere to this or that popular trend (usually corridor shooters and racers up the wazoo) and bring back the creativity and passion that was omnipresent on former consoles. That's not the fault of the new consoles, obviously, as they're stronger than former ones. But I needn't get into that.

Decado
08-14-2004, 01:58 PM
I don't know about the PS2's RAM issue.
Developers always complain about RAM. That's one thing it is nearly impossible to have too little of. I hear more complaints about RAM on the Xbox than anything (even though it has more than the PS2), though that is largely because there are so many PC developers who work on it.

Decado
08-14-2004, 02:00 PM
I wish that game companies would all stop trying to adhere to this or that popular trend (usually corridor shooters and racers up the wazoo) and bring back the creativity and passion that was omnipresent on former consoles. Refresh my memory. What titles were so utterly brilliant and creative in the SNES/Genesis days that they simply cannot be matched by todays games?

Vert1
08-14-2004, 02:02 PM
I'll name just two:

Yoshi's Island(SNES)
Gunstar Heroes(Genesis)

Dr. Bombay
08-14-2004, 04:22 PM
Two more

Herzog Zwei (Genesis)
Battle Clash (SNES)

Omnislash005
08-14-2004, 05:58 PM
Secret of Mana

naruto_sensei
08-14-2004, 06:03 PM
final fantasy VI

gabriel
08-14-2004, 09:31 PM
With increased technological capabilities come increased production costs; it's much easier to take innovative risks when there aren't millions of dollars at stake.

See also: Hollywood

Drunken Savior
08-14-2004, 10:17 PM
For every Secret of Mana there was a Boogerman, for every Yoshi's Island there was Addams Family - Pugsley's Scavenger Hunt. People who say that the past was much better than today is obviously blind to the fact that quality and crap were born on the same day. But when we look back at the past, we tend to remember the good more than the bad. Ten years from now, we won't remember all the ****ty titles that came out (with few exceptions) because all the good ones will take centerstage whenever we recollect the past.

Of course, if you spend all your time whining about bad games now than spending your time playing good games, your not going to look back at this generation fondly. I know I didn't whine about games like Pit Fighter (SNES) today because I'd rather focus on the hours of entertainment Chrono Trigger gave me. Even hyped games like NBA Jam I still love to play for their basic challenge. Today, I'll remember games like Knights of the Old Republic and Metroid Prime rather than Enter the Matrix or Dead Man's Hand. And even with my collection, I have crappy old school games like SimEarth and Bubsy 2 to match the crappy games I collect now like Red Dead Revolver. I enjoy my crap.

Vert1
08-14-2004, 10:25 PM
I thought everything you just said was flawed.No one's saying there wasn't a lot of crap back than but that there were better quality titles and more quantity of quality titles.So I'll ask what's your point?

Drunken Savior
08-14-2004, 10:56 PM
What's flawed about it? I'm saying that when you think of the past, you think of the good games first. No one reflects upon all the bad games of the past. I bet if I asked, people can name more bad games from this generation than the SNES days. Of course this can't be proven, because someone would just check a listing online. :spinface: Heck, even games that I think are decent people are listing up above as great. Even when I play my old games, I find things I dislike that I didn't notice then because I was too busy playing them and having fun than critiquing every nook and cranny. But that's their subjective opinion, not mine. For example, though I love Earthworm Jim, I think the controls were a little too loose for my tastes. Final Fantasy VI has too much melodrama at times. I think it's unfair to judge this generation now because we are in the thick of it, we cannot properly reflect upon it like we can games that are decades old. I'm not going to stop people from judging this generation while we are in the middle of it, but I do think it's very premature to make any kind of declaration until everything is said and done. My personal view is that Metroid Prime is a game that dwarfs 90% of the greatest games ever, and it's from this generation. MP is a funner and more inventive game to me than all the games listed above.

My comment was mostly reflecting on what Icarus said, "I wish that game companies would all stop trying to adhere to this or that popular trend (usually corridor shooters and racers up the wazoo) and bring back the creativity and passion that was omnipresent on former consoles." Of course, when the PS entered and when RPGs became huge, the industry grew and the number of titles increased. Game makers have always latched onto popular trends in order to take a piece of the business. North America and Europe have become more prevelant in bringing us better titles (Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia, GTA:VC, Metroid Prime, KOTOR) than their Japanese counterparts, which have dominated the market until fairly recently. While Japan is definately the birthplace of modern gaming, they have tried to make too many sequels (Megaman, Street Fighter, Mario, Sonic) which have fallen short of expectations and creativity. In general, I see Japan's developers as lacking more passion and innovation today than North America's devlopers.

Vert1
08-14-2004, 11:57 PM
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me.I thought you were responding to everyone listing games(see I'd be the one that started that) not Icarus.I still stand behind what I said earlier though.Games this gen haven't been as innovative/fresh as they used to be.I blame this on Sony,3D games,and mainstream gamers tastes now of days.

naruto_sensei
08-15-2004, 12:23 AM
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me.I thought you were responding to everyone listing games(see I'd be the one that started that) not Icarus.I still stand behind what I said earlier though.Games this gen haven't been as innovative/fresh as they used to be.I blame this on Sony,3D games,and mainstream gamers tastes now of days.

yes sony is the root of all evil!:evilsmile

gabriel
08-15-2004, 12:23 AM
I blame this on Sony,3D games,and mainstream gamers tastes now of days.

Amen, to that. Sony really fvcked shlt up by strong-arming the market to accept 3D before the technology was ready. Sega built the Saturn with 2D in mind, but was pretty much forced into making (graphically) weaker 3D games in order to stay competitive - imagine instead of the crappy early 32-bit gen graphics, and clumsy gameplay that accompanied them, if there was a transitory generation of beautiful 2D games, the likes of which was hinted at at the end of the SNES's life :crying:

Of course, from a business perspective it's perfectly clear why Sony did what they did - but, from a gamers' perspective it doesn't make it any less deplorable :too mad:

Takou
08-15-2004, 01:45 AM
Amen, to that. Sony really fvcked shlt up by strong-arming the market to accept 3D before the technology was ready. Sega built the Saturn with 2D in mind, but was pretty much forced into making (graphically) weaker 3D games in order to stay competitive - imagine instead of the crappy early 32-bit gen graphics, and clumsy gameplay that accompanied them, if there was a transitory generation of beautiful 2D games, the likes of which was hinted at at the end of the SNES's life :crying:

Of course, from a business perspective it's perfectly clear why Sony did what they did - but, from a gamers' perspective it doesn't make it any less deplorable :too mad:


If your a nitpickey person like me, you would have noticed how bad games looked back then when it was back then. A lot of developers were trying to do realism and psuedo realism much too soon and as a result lots of ps1, saturn and 64 games were really ugly, mostly the early ones. If they had stuck to 2d and slowly faded into 3d then there would be more appreceation for the games of today. FF6 and Chrono Trigger showed us that the game engine was all you needed to tell the story in a more advanced manner.Games like Ninja Gaiden and Final Fantasy 10 don't need fmv's but they have them anyway, graphics arent really a problem this gen, so why should we have fmv's in all of our games?

Graphics are being taken much too far now, there are too many people wanting fmv's, and realism, along with having grand story's, and beating eachother up in 3 dimensions. Developers have found a way to use realistic graphics and not have dramatic effects on the system now if only they can do this with cel shading. Instead of following the crowd, developers should make games based on a simple concept of thier own and build upon it from there instead of putting everything in the blender and call it a game. You know, make games because you enjoy making them more than making money.

Icarus4578
08-15-2004, 01:59 AM
To hand it to you straight Drunken, it has to do with three key elements: Appeal, funfactor, and longevity. I'm opening up game magazines from old, viewing the games as they were being shown for the first time and remembering every ounce of excitement that I felt anticipating/playing many of these games. There was far greater freedom to explore and create back then, and yet, ironically enough, there's far more room for developers to be creative nowadays than ever before. And even still, most companies don't invest in anything except for sequels in 3D (usually not as good as the previous version[s]), lousy me-too filler that doesn't really stand out from the genre it's trying to fit-in with, etc. etc. Most new games just don't have the kind of appeal that older software used to. It's not necessarily because of 3D (in fact, shouldn't 3D open up more possibilities?), although 3D does often take away a lot of the appeal factor as far as visuals are concerned, not because it's 3D but because nobody uses any imagination with it. Gameplay-wise, games have evolved somewhat. I mean we never dreamed of playing anything at 60fps (Virtua Fighter 2 & Klonoa) or actually running around a mesmerizing 3D world where time passes by realistically, albeit with exaggerated speed (Zelda ~ Ocarina of Time). So, in many respects gaming has been taken further than before, but the kind of unique and appealing titles which former generations harbored has yet to be matched in terms of quality. Even Nintendo hasn't lived up to their former self.

naruto_sensei
08-15-2004, 03:00 AM
ok I'm tired of this elitism bull**** tell me some of the issues with today's games aside from the charm/innovation crap

Icarus4578
08-15-2004, 04:11 AM
There's no eliticism about this issue, as you put it. Just looking at the crap that lines store shelves is enough to convince me that gaming is in a slump. Where are all the must-have titles? There used to be TONS of quality games like Secret of Mana, Gunstar Heroes, River City Ransom, Axelay, Thunder Force IV, Super Punch-Out!!, Legendary Axe, Strider, Forgotten Worlds, Shining the Holy Ark, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Phantasy Star II & IV, etc. etc. etc. In contrast, what has this generation offered? Devil May Cry? Ok. Ninja Gaiden? Sure. Metroid Prime? Yes. There's some high-quality gaming right there, but the FACT of the matter is that titles such as these are few and far-between. Not only that, they're all spread out across three platforms, and it's amazing just thinking about how much better things were when it was gaming companies going at it. Everything is online now, pretty much everything has to be 3D, and there's way too many corridor shooters and cinematic 'adventures' to send a person reeling and begging for it all to stop.

Enough is enough. I want more actual quality products that bring something new to the table and offer a rewarding gaming experience, not just mindless killing, poorly developed RPGs, and sports titles. They're basically killing these genres, taking the joy right out of them.

I just want to play games and have fun. However, I don't really feel like blowing all of my money on a new RPG, for example, if it's just 40+ hours of running around doing the same bullsh*t that I've done countless times before. That's why I'm playing Tales of Destiny II right now, because Namco wasn't content with just creating another boring-ass point-&-click RPG like has been done a million times before and actually wanted to do something different than all of the others. Everybody else that creates an RPG just sticks in the same formulatic gameplay with slightly improved graphics, technically speaking, and perhaps they'll add a new 'system' or two in an attempt to pretend that their RPG offers something original when in fact it doesn't. That's just one example. Is that really worth paying extra money for when you've already got the best RPGs? If so, why? What are you going to do, spend $250 on a new console and $40-50 for a new RPG that's not even near as good as the ones on older consoles? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.... :rolleyes:

I've tried to explain my stance as best I could, but I can't help it if you don't understand that there was obviously a completely different mind-set to developing games back then as opposed to now. Nowadays, even Sega has been churning out dog crap. What the hell is it gonna take for you to understand that things aren't doing so hot in this industry right now--another market crash? A monopoly? You tell me.

"Oh, I'm so content with dogsh*t like Red Dead Revolver and Kingdom Hearts. What are you whining about Icarus? You want the industry to resemble the way it was, yet that's never gonna happen again, so get over it." :sing:

Drunken Savior
08-15-2004, 04:19 AM
To hand it to you straight Drunken, it has to do with three key elements: Appeal, funfactor, and longevity.

I don't even need to read the rest, because all those topics are based on a subjective basis. Futhermore, you seem to be drawn toward exploration/innovation, which isn't a bad thing. However, when you claim that the current games lack those features found in earlier games, did you once ever think that most of your arguments about 3D games could be directly related to the 2D era? People wern't getting tired of Megaman7, but they were looking at 3D games as something different, something truely innovative. Virtua Fighter, the ugliest fighter in history, was a hue sucess. Sega was kicking ass and taking names when 3D came around. Developers took that cruel look and transformed it to beautiful gems like Splinter Cell, where they can build upon their ideas to create light to create a virtual hide and go seek game. A game that could never be done in 2D. That's innovation, building upon ideas. Of course they reuse some good ideas, but what's wrong with that? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. While every game owes its life to the SNES era, that does not immeditately make it second class. The games developed are just as good as the ones I played on Colecovision and SNES. While I've explored everything in A Link to the Past, I've yet to find every design set up to make Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorow an entertaining experience. I've logged more hours into that game than most games on the SNES. But I degress on my own subjective opinion. There is innovation all over, but you have a particular view on what you feel innovation is. Whatever it is, it is not what everyone would define as their version of innovation. I disagree with you 100% on this issue, because I'm still having fun gaming today as I did when I played 6 hour a day on Mario Paint.

Takou
08-15-2004, 05:10 AM
While Icarus is a bit too histerical on all of this, what he says is quite true, there are too few great games and they are spread across three consoles. But what you say, Drunken, is that there are still good games to be found I know I wouldn't have bought a ps2 or gamecube if there werent any good games to have. I have yet to really get many games for my cube but I have over 30 games for my ps2, and they are all of great quality. While my gamecube only has four games only two of them are cosidered great while the other two are either good or bad. There are still more games for me to get for both cosoles too.

Hey Icarus, how do you like ToE/D2? I like it better than ToS the battle system is so much better when you get the combo command and manual mode, I also like the story better too. Even though Namco cut out some of the character development it still manages to not be just a generic rpg. ToS gives me this "trying to be" feeling to it, but ToE/D2 just does it, and the gameplay is more tight than ToS.

Makaveli_786
08-15-2004, 10:07 AM
Joe, doesn't the PS2 also have the problem of having to put everything in one RAM sector? I had read somewhere awhile back about how the PS2 has to store everything in one place instead of being able to spread things across the hardware such as polygonal textures, CPU/AI instructions, physics, etc., and that it was easily the weakest of the current three (which is a known fact). Sorry that I'm not as into this technical jargon as some other people.

Makaveli_786 ~ "When I left it overnight it wasnt jumpin hoops, I've left my PS2 on for 3 nights in a row and it didnt effect it at all."

:haha: I think you're full of it.

~ "Do you even have a PS2?"

Obviously you haven't read anything in this thread. Otherwise, you'd know that I'm on my fourth PS2. What's sad is that I took great care of my former three yet they eventually self-destructed by either not reading discs or scratching them (I had to repurchase the Super Castlevania IV soundtrack; THaNKs SoNY!! :love: )

~ "Firstly the best selling games on the PS2 have been among the lines of Final Fantasy, Kingdom of hearts, GTA series and Gran Turismo.."

And isn't that just a shame?

~ "Now each of these games takes upto 250 hours of your life when pushed, thats 10 games that can occupy over 1000 hours of your life, in other words 20 days of you playing constantly, name 10 games on the SNES or Geneis which can keep you occupied for 1000 hours, the amount of time the PS2 sees action is phenomenal."

....Wow, you're a loser, aren't you? "250 hours??" "1,000 HOURS?!?" That's.... that's really something. You must not get out much.

~ "Its spelt true, by the way where can I find the link to where a Sony official or spokesman or even some drunk guy announced Sony are saying stuff only lasts a couple of years so lets intentionally build bad quality products."

Just because I made a small typo doesn't mean Jack. I write far more than most other forum members (not that that makes me better than anybody else) and I rarely make mistakes. Don't even try starting this kind of war with me because I'll destroy you.

~ "Well it depends on your interpretation of quality, last year Sony's software sales were 100 million so 100 million game buyers thought the PS2 games were of quality, the PS2 has under a 1000 games."

Are you a retard? If a console sells 100 million units of software in a year (which I don't buy for a second) then that does not mean that 100 million individual gamers bought 100 million individual pieces of software. There isn't even that many PS2s manufactured. Sony has an installed user-base of about 35-40 million worldwide (yes, I know that Sony likes to fudge their user-base figures, but that's what happens when you're a lying corporation).

Vert1 ~ "Games back than on Genesis and SNES probably wouldn't occupy you for such long periods of time of over 1000 hours(well unless you decided to let SF2 take over your life) but it's not about how lengthy a game is but how much quality a game holds.I will tell you right now the Genesis and SNES hold insane amounts of more quality than PS2.SNES and Genesis also have games that you can play over and over and they don't grow old unlike PS2 games.I wouldn't even say that's an opinon but pretty much a fact.Whatever though *insert sentence of I'll be playing these better games and you'll be playing those lame games here*"

I believe that's true Vert1, and I also believe that most every member agrees with that assessment, whether or not they're willing to admit it.

Takou ~ The snes and genesis were miles above any console after them, thats a fact, not an opinion. The ps2 is more powerful than the dc but the gc and xbox are even more powerful, there isn't that much of a graphical difference between the gc and xbox either, the xbox is more susceptible to slowdown than the gc too."

Let's not leave out the Saturn. :P:thumb-up:

LOL I can tell your weak just from your reply, first you were spewing bull**** and fake figures about the PS2 now youve dropped that and are starting a pathetic array of insults, your being ignored till you stop the petty flames and try to prove me wrong technically, nice doing business with you :D

Makaveli_786
08-15-2004, 10:08 AM
While Icarus is a bit too histerical on all of this, what he says is quite true, there are too few great games and they are spread across three consoles. But what you say, Drunken, is that there are still good games to be found I know I wouldn't have bought a ps2 or gamecube if there werent any good games to have. I have yet to really get many games for my cube but I have over 30 games for my ps2, and they are all of great quality. While my gamecube only has four games only two of them are cosidered great while the other two are either good or bad. There are still more games for me to get for both cosoles too.

Hey Icarus, how do you like ToE/D2? I like it better than ToS the battle system is so much better when you get the combo command and manual mode, I also like the story better too. Even though Namco cut out some of the character development it still manages to not be just a generic rpg. ToS gives me this "trying to be" feeling to it, but ToE/D2 just does it, and the gameplay is more tight than ToS.

30 good quality games.. hey werent you the one a minute ago talking about how current gen games sucked?

Make your mind up

Takou
08-15-2004, 06:09 PM
30 good quality games.. hey werent you the one a minute ago talking about how current gen games sucked?

Make your mind up


I could have had much more than 30 quality games for my ps2 by now, but thier spread across 3 consoles, theres also a bunch of really bad or mediocre games for the ps2 right now too. If you read myprevious post a little better you would know that I have yet to get more great games for my ps2 and especially my gamecube.

j_factor
08-15-2004, 06:17 PM
Damn, I had a looooong post and then my browser crashed.

~ "Firstly the best selling games on the PS2 have been among the lines of Final Fantasy, Kingdom of hearts, GTA series and Gran Turismo.."

And isn't that just a shame?

:haha: This literally made me laugh and clap. And then I realized how lame I am for clapping at something I read on the computer.

Amen, to that. Sony really fvcked shlt up by strong-arming the market to accept 3D before the technology was ready.

I'm all for 2d games, but I disagree with this. Sony didn't strong-arm the market to accept 3d. 3D had been around and was blossoming, and would have been the buzz regardless of Sony. How much was it touted that 3DO could handle "sophisticated" 3d games? And Jaguar? And even 32x's (modest) 3d capability was boasted. Not to mention the (polygonal) 3d games that were coming out for high-end PCs as well as arcade systems starting with Sega's much-vaunted Model 1 board. Sony did strong-arm the market, but not into accepting 3d; Sony strong-armed the market into casting aside 2d in the process.
I also disagree that the technology wasn't ready. Not ready for what? Of course, early 3d games don't look as good as newer games, but that's to be expected. I for one did think that there was way too much hoopla about 3d and that many games didn't look so amazing as people said; regardless, the technology was definitely ready for 3d gaming in 1995, and games like Panzer Dragoon and WipEout were indicators of this.

Virtua Fighter, the ugliest fighter in history

You must have never played Fighting Masters, Slaughter Sport, or Clayfighter. :P

30 good quality games.. hey werent you the one a minute ago talking about how current gen games sucked?

Make your mind up

He has made his mind up. The two go together. 30 quality games ain't ****, all things considered. PS2 has been on the market for four years, and it's the dominant console of this generation, and yet it only has 30 quality games? That's on the level of Sega CD, not Genesis and SNES (which had to share dominance, even).

Dr. Bombay
08-15-2004, 06:37 PM
LOL I can tell your weak just from your reply, first you were spewing bull**** and fake figures about the PS2 now youve dropped that and are starting a pathetic array of insults, your being ignored till you stop the petty flames and try to prove me wrong technically, nice doing business with you :D

Isn't that what you've been doing since you got here? How very hypocritical.

Icarus4578
08-16-2004, 10:16 AM
Takou, so far so good. I really like the battle system and how quick everything progresses. Very colorful with great attention to detail. I like its presentation much moreso than Symphonia's.

Makaveli_786, it's obvious to anybody with two eyes and a brain that both the GC and X-Box are superior hardware to the PS2. Yes, you're right--those game grabs look good but you're ignoring the fact that those are high-res screenshots and probably not all in-game while playing. Technically speaking, both the GC and X-Box can out-polygon the PS2. The only issue is that with the GC mini-disc format the developers cannot hold as much information as the DVDs on the other consoles. Nevertheless, I guarantee that RE4 will demolish anything on PS2.

j_factor ~ "I'm all for 2d games, but I disagree with this. Sony didn't strong-arm the market to accept 3d. 3D had been around and was blossoming, and would have been the buzz regardless of Sony. How much was it touted that 3DO could handle "sophisticated" 3d games? And Jaguar? And even 32x's (modest) 3d capability was boasted. Not to mention the (polygonal) 3d games that were coming out for high-end PCs as well as arcade systems starting with Sega's much-vaunted Model 1 board. Sony did strong-arm the market, but not into accepting 3d; Sony strong-armed the market into casting aside 2d in the process.
I also disagree that the technology wasn't ready. Not ready for what? Of course, early 3d games don't look as good as newer games, but that's to be expected. I for one did think that there was way too much hoopla about 3d and that many games didn't look so amazing as people said; regardless, the technology was definitely ready for 3d gaming in 1995, and games like Panzer Dragoon and WipEout were indicators of this."

SCEA certainly did, and Sony of Japan isn't stepping in to do anything about it. Even the game publications brought this subject up numerous times back in the PS days. Dave Halverson, for example, discussed this briefly in his Skeleton Warriors review--Sony just doesn't like 2D platformers and such. When PS3 comes, say goodbye to most every straight 2D game for the console.

I agree that Sony themselves aren't fully responsible for the transition that has taken place. 3D appeals more to many consumers and every company wants respectable market share. Put one and one together and there you have it. However, I see no reason why the future should be restricted to just 3D titles. Isn't that in and of itself a massive limitation? Developers should be allowed flexibility wherever necessary, and should they come to falter then that's their problem, not the first-party's. Also, let's not forget how minimal coverage games like Metal Slug 3 received in the game media. They play a big part in the game, and they know it--hence why they promote whatever they want to, especially Sony and Microsoft, moreso the former. I wouldn't mind having a small share in the market as a first-party (say 7%), just as long as my console had the best games, not just the best graphics and technical features which ultimately lead nowhere.

Decado
08-16-2004, 03:23 PM
Also, let's not forget how minimal coverage games like Metal Slug 3 received in the game media. Why should that game get more coverage? It's a bare bones port of an ancient game. Hell, even *I* played it YEARS ago. I don't see why obvious, EXTREMELY cheap cash-ins should get a lot of attention.

Now if MS3 was actually a new game and built on todays hardware (like Gradius V), I could understand it.

Decado
08-16-2004, 03:29 PM
Where are all the must-have titles? They're still there. Can't help but wonder if gaming has simply passed you by.

There used to be TONS of quality games like Secret of Mana, Gunstar Heroes, River City Ransom, Axelay, Thunder Force IV, Super Punch-Out!!, Legendary Axe, Strider, Forgotten Worlds, Shining the Holy Ark, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Phantasy Star II & IV, etc. etc. etc. And there was absolutely TONS of rubbish, too. There are quite a few very high quality games out on this generation of consoles and there is still a good 2 years to go (hopefully). There won't be as many games when it comes down to it, simply because they could pump them out so quickly back then (they were just so simple, for the most part).

Gaming has change and, overall, I don't want to go back. I simply can't stand the simplicity of most older games.

I do wish S-E would go back to what they were like last generation, though. Haven't been too impressed with them this gen :annoyed:

Icarus4578
08-16-2004, 06:00 PM
Ok. They're there but nowhere near as appealing nor frequent. Plus, they're spead too thin across all consoles. Now, more than ever, games are appearing on multiple consoles and this defeats the purpose of each individual console because they're each supposed to stand out, and the best way to stand out is through killer software. Why do you think the 16-bit race wrought so many high-quality titles? Anyway, I'm well aware that there's tons of crap on older consoles, but the ratio of fun, original games (and great series being started) to the crap filler was far greater in earlier generations.

Maybe things will change rapidly once new consoles come out such as Nintendo's DS and Revolution, vs PS3 and X-Box 2. The reason is obvious enough: Nintendo's trying to take gaming into a completely new realm, and the others might follow suit. If Revolution turns out to be a bad idea then that's Nintendo's fault. And if PS3/X-Box 2 just turn out to be stronger versions of the current consoles then gaming may very well just stagnate and appeal may diminish, especially if companies just try to do what they've been doing over the past few years but with more polygons. That, to me, will not warrant the purchase. They'll need to do something else in order to appeal to me. Sorry if that sounds too self-important but I believe that most games nowadays are not worth the investment and that gaming needs to grow, not just the big third-parties with the most hype who'll inevitably try to gobble up smaller firms once they've been had.

j_factor
08-16-2004, 07:27 PM
Dave Halverson, for example, discussed this briefly in his Skeleton Warriors review--Sony just doesn't like 2D platformers and such. When PS3 comes, say goodbye to most every straight 2D game for the console.

I wouldn't be surprised. It's quite a pity. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that Nintendo isn't anti-2d. How many 2d games (other than puzzle and fighting) are available for N64? 2? And Treasure had to remake Bangaioh for Dreamcast to get it published in the West.

However, I see no reason why the future should be restricted to just 3D titles. Isn't that in and of itself a massive limitation? Developers should be allowed flexibility wherever necessary, and should they come to falter then that's their problem, not the first-party's.

:cool guy: Totally.

I'd really like to see 2d be taken further. With the exception of fighters, we haven't really made any progress graphically since 1995. Seriously, we've still yet to see a 2d game that really bests Astal's graphics, and that was a Saturn launch game.* I'm not a graphics whore, but still.

[* It was available in North America at Saturn's "official launch" in September '95, but not that stupid, limited affair that had been done in May which I prefer to not count]

Why should that game get more coverage? It's a bare bones port of an ancient game. Hell, even *I* played it YEARS ago. I don't see why obvious, EXTREMELY cheap cash-ins should get a lot of attention.

It got no coverage when it first came out to begin with.

if PS3/X-Box 2 just turn out to be stronger versions of the current consoles then gaming may very well just stagnate and appeal may diminish, especially if companies just try to do what they've been doing over the past few years but with more polygons. That, to me, will not warrant the purchase. They'll need to do something else in order to appeal to me. Sorry if that sounds too self-important but I believe that most games nowadays are not worth the investment and that gaming needs to grow, not just the big third-parties with the most hype who'll inevitably try to gobble up smaller firms once they've been had.

Right on. :thumb-up: If that happens I probably won't even bother with the next generation and instead will spend all my video game money on older systems. I'd hate to become some jaded elitist stuck in the past (well, moreso). And if that happens it'll be the industry's fault. :P

Dreamkin
08-17-2004, 07:37 AM
Well well well... It's been a long time since I looked at this thread. And still nothing has changed. Still Icarus is answering everyone and still presenting absolutely no logical and concrate reasons to his claims while conveinently skipping parts of other people's posts as he sees fit. Still people are not reading what's written and arguing for arguing's sake.

There are no "opinions" about some things. It is useless to discuss. Black is black, white is white. To say Xbox and Cube have better hardware than PS2 is 1)shows lack of knowledge 2)if it is based on the fact that the same version of the games looking worst on PS2 it's funny because e.g. Mortal Kombat: DA, and MGS2 look worst on Xbox somehow and most games look worst on Cube. But hey, if this happens it is the fault of the company isn't it? Not the fault of the console. But when it happens on PS2 it's because PS2 is the worst console ever produced.

How funny is it that the titles sell best on PS2 (as you name it Final Fantasy X, GTA3 and co, Gran Turismo 3) are those very titles. Could it be because that currently they are the best in their genre on any current generation console. Naaaah. Probably Shenmue2 was better. Yeah. But those fanboys did not even see it. Probably there is nothing innovative about taking a 2d game idea and implementing it to a 3d engine so GTA is crap too. People keep buying it because itis hype probably. Lots of commercials. I wonder how DMA Design can raise the money for so many commercials. I really wonder. I also wonder how DMA is able to earn thos millions of dollars while spending so much on commercials. Ah maybe the media is evil and wants somehow PS2 games to succeed without gaining anything in return. Or is the evil Sony's work. Ooooooh. THEM... They are financing the hype machine that makes the game the best selling game of this generation. How clever of sony to support a third party crap game like this and probably not supporting their own 1st party crap game Primal. Right. But I guess Sony is stupid anyway. After all they produced the worst console ever. Stupid jerks also seem to earn lots of money though. Mysteries of life.

PS2 games are not innovative. Appearently. And there is innovation galore on other consoles of this generation. Yesterday I took my Xbox for a spin and played all the wonderful innovative games like ummm... Dead of Alive 3 and Ninja Gaiden and ummm Knights Of The Old Republic and Halo... oh wait. I'd better play those last two on my PC. And I am really very very excited about Resident Evil 4, the most innovative game in terms of gameplay and story in the history of gaming. I just hope that this time they'll have a different zombie moaning effect.

There are also people who name some previous generation console and say it was better. I especially love them. They are so right. You know what...
In fact the best hardware ever is Amiga. It comes together with a mouse and keyboard. And has so many innovative and wonderful games on it. Defender Of The Crown, Dungeon Master, Shadow Of The Beast. Hell can there ever be a better racing game than Lotus? Kick Off 2 is certainly 1000 times better than Winning Eleven. Eye Of The Beholder kicks Final Fantasy X's ass all around. North and South tramples allover Romance Of The Three Kingdoms 7, 8 or 9 in the strategy department. And Turrican 2 is the best action game evAR!! Take that you white haired freak called Dante. You stole everything from Symphony of the Night, which in turn stole everything from Mertiod which in turn stole everything from Donkey Kong which in turn stole everything from Jumpman Junior.

NO INNOVAAYSHHUUNNN!!!

In fact Doom is stolen from Pac-Man!!... In both games you run through a maze, are chased by monsters, take powerups and can kill them but when you kill them they respawn.

You know what... all of those suck. Why? Because they don't even support CASSETTES. Ah ha. Nothing gives me the "appeal, funfactor and longevity" feeling of tuning the cassette head looking at black stripes.

And you must all agree with me because my subjectivity of objective. If I don't have fun no one can. All the people who have fun are morons. My life is 2d. I could never see the 3d dimension. :kill: DEATH TO BILL AND TED

:spinface: BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER :spinface:

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 09:41 AM
I could have had much more than 30 quality games for my ps2 by now, but thier spread across 3 consoles, theres also a bunch of really bad or mediocre games for the ps2 right now too. If you read myprevious post a little better you would know that I have yet to get more great games for my ps2 and especially my gamecube.

So what are these 30 games?

I'm sure if you give me a list I can add just a lot more, keep your eyes open and experiment, dont judge by the cover.

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 09:42 AM
Isn't that what you've been doing since you got here? How very hypocritical.

I posted facts and figures and got flamed, I defended myself, was I wrong for standing up for myself?

If so then I'll remain wrong.

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 09:49 AM
Makaveli_786, it's obvious to anybody with two eyes and a brain that both the GC and X-Box are superior hardware to the PS2. Yes, you're right--those game grabs look good but you're ignoring the fact that those are high-res screenshots and probably not all in-game while playing. Technically speaking, both the GC and X-Box can out-polygon the PS2. The only issue is that with the GC mini-disc format the developers cannot hold as much information as the DVDs on the other consoles. Nevertheless, I guarantee that RE4 will demolish anything on PS2.

Ahh yes RE4, something ive been looking forward to.

Anyway check this out, when GT4 and RE4 come out ill do a split screen on my HDTV and ill take a picture with my digital camera and well see which one looks better, I'll do the same with any Xbox game you name, hows that for a comparison huh?

SCEA certainly did, and Sony of Japan isn't stepping in to do anything about it. Even the game publications brought this subject up numerous times back in the PS days. Dave Halverson, for example, discussed this briefly in his Skeleton Warriors review--Sony just doesn't like 2D platformers and such. When PS3 comes, say goodbye to most every straight 2D game for the console.

I agree that Sony themselves aren't fully responsible for the transition that has taken place. 3D appeals more to many consumers and every company wants respectable market share. Put one and one together and there you have it. However, I see no reason why the future should be restricted to just 3D titles. Isn't that in and of itself a massive limitation? Developers should be allowed flexibility wherever necessary, and should they come to falter then that's their problem, not the first-party's. Also, let's not forget how minimal coverage games like Metal Slug 3 received in the game media. They play a big part in the game, and they know it--hence why they promote whatever they want to, especially Sony and Microsoft, moreso the former. I wouldn't mind having a small share in the market as a first-party (say 7%), just as long as my console had the best games, not just the best graphics and technical features which ultimately lead nowhere.

Agreed, back in the 2D days there was more focus on actual gameplay which made games more fun, now when they take focus off gameplay they focus on graphics, graphics are great but without gameplay it wont go far.

Now when I heard GTA3 was going to be 3D i was a little upset, I immensely enjoyed the gameplay in GTA1 and 2 regardless of the graphics, I was the biggest critic of graphics.

Then GTA3 came out and retained the quality the original two had but had more elements added due to its new found graphical abilities, graphics arent your enemy but sometimes they do ruin good games, I dont think anybody can deny that with a straight face.

Icarus4578
08-17-2004, 10:02 AM
Dreamkin ~ "There are no "opinions" about some things. It is useless to discuss. Black is black, white is white. To say Xbox and Cube have better hardware than PS2 is 1)shows lack of knowledge 2)if it is based on the fact that the same version of the games looking worst on PS2 it's funny because e.g. Mortal Kombat: DA, and MGS2 look worst on Xbox somehow and most games look worst on Cube. But hey, if this happens it is the fault of the company isn't it? Not the fault of the console. But when it happens on PS2 it's because PS2 is the worst console ever produced."

You're really full of it Dreamkin, you know that? As far as I'm concerned, this generation has all but outright sucked, and it's not even a question of hardware performance but of how few good titles there have been.

Dreamkin ~ "How funny is it that the titles sell best on PS2 (as you name it Final Fantasy X, GTA3 and co, Gran Turismo 3) are those very titles. Could it be because that currently they are the best in their genre on any current generation console. Naaaah. Probably Shenmue2 was better. Yeah. But those fanboys did not even see it."

So you're basically confirming that you're marking out to whatever the media deems to be the best.

Dreakin ~ "Probably there is nothing innovative about taking a 2d game idea and implementing it to a 3d engine so GTA is crap too. People keep buying it because itis hype probably. Lots of commercials. I wonder how DMA Design can raise the money for so many commercials. I really wonder."

Two explanations: 1) Remember that Sony paid DMA a ton of money for the series to be exclusive for awhile. And 2) The massive media hype and widespread attention made GTA3 sell like hotcakes.

"I also wonder how DMA is able to earn thos millions of dollars while spending so much on commercials. Ah maybe the media is evil and wants somehow PS2 games to succeed without gaining anything in return. Or is the evil Sony's work. Ooooooh. THEM... They are financing the hype machine that makes the game the best selling game of this generation. How clever of sony to support a third party crap game like this and probably not supporting their own 1st party crap game Primal. Right. But I guess Sony is stupid anyway. After all they produced the worst console ever. Stupid jerks also seem to earn lots of money though. Mysteries of life."

If you bothered to read anything in this thread, or were simply informed, then you'd know the obvious answers to those questions. DMA is one of the hottest companies in the market right now with some of the hottest franchises. I don't think GTA games suck but I do think that the missions aren't half as fun as just doing whatever I want (usually blowing up stuff). Once again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing--that's to be expected. Every game on the face of the planet needs to be given a rest after awhile.

Dreamkin ~ "PS2 games are not innovative. Appearently. And there is innovation galore on other consoles of this generation. Yesterday I took my Xbox for a spin and played all the wonderful innovative games like ummm... Dead of Alive 3 and Ninja Gaiden and ummm Knights Of The Old Republic and Halo... oh wait. I'd better play those last two on my PC. And I am really very very excited about Resident Evil 4, the most innovative game in terms of gameplay and story in the history of gaming. I just hope that this time they'll have a different zombie moaning effect."

Once again, you didn't bother to read anything that was said. I didn't just isolate the lack of innovative titles. Certainly, I expected that there would be a bare minimum of them even before this generation had begun. However, I am stunned at the lack of original software, and when I say original I don't mean 'the next king of the FPS genre' but new, exciting and appealing software similar to the original software on previous consoles. Why must we always be handed this or that game, let's say RPG, and see nothing apparent that makes it stand out? Fable looks promising, but how many other games can you say that about? Think about something else, too: How much money does the average gamer spend a year on games? I'd say around $200-250. Ok, so then, how many must-own titles are there across the spectrum every year? Last year there weren't that many, and much of those were on the GBA, arguably (I'd argue in GBA's favor). Where are all the killer exclusives? And since you're bitching about there being a new RE, and one which promises to take the series much further than ever before, why not bitch and moan about Halo 2 being the thousandth corridor shooter?

Dreamkin ~ "There are also people who name some previous generation console and say it was better. I especially love them. They are so right. You know what...
In fact the best hardware ever is Amiga. It comes together with a mouse and keyboard. And has so many innovative and wonderful games on it. Defender Of The Crown, Dungeon Master, Shadow Of The Beast. Hell can there ever be a better racing game than Lotus? Kick Off 2 is certainly 1000 times better than Winning Eleven. Eye Of The Beholder kicks Final Fantasy X's ass all around. North and South tramples allover Romance Of The Three Kingdoms 7, 8 or 9 in the strategy department. And Turrican 2 is the best action game evAR!! Take that you white haired freak called Dante. You stole everything from Symphony of the Night, which in turn stole everything from Mertiod which in turn stole everything from Donkey Kong which in turn stole everything from Jumpman Junior.

NO INNOVAAYSHHUUNNN!!!"

Wow, that's weak coming from you Dreamkin. I expected much more from you.

Dreamkin ~ "Blah blah blah, no innovation, blah blah, etc."

What is your problem anyway? Do you need for me to spell it out for you? Naturally, whenever I post in a debate, unless I'm bringing up something that's well-known, it's just me stating my views, my opinions about something or another. Wait.... I should be HAPPY with the zillionth RPG that takes the genre and does nothing with it except perhaps push more polygons around, and I should be CONTENT with blowing $40-50 on the 'next big thing', another Xenosaga, Metal Gear and Halo, correct?

No thanks. I'll wait for some good games to come along instead of shelling out mo' money, mo' money, MO' MONEY just so that I can have the prodigious honor of wasting more hours of my life on the same old bullsh*t that I've encountered a thousand times before. How am I supposed to have fun when I'm just playing the same thing over and over again? That's why a series like Mario is so good--with every new installment there are radical play mechanic changes. Well, except for Mario Sunshine. I think most everybody would agree that that was a tremendous letdown.

If you want this industry to change for the better then somebody has to take a stand. I feel obligated to do so, if you don't mind. After all, which is the better solution: Sit around letting the sellout game media dictate which games are hype-worthy while mindless drones like yourself eat up everything they tell you to, or, observe what's really happening, how the game industry is stagnating and not yielding fruit, and try and do something about it? After all, we're a community here, and we have at least some influence on this industry through both our actions and our words. I'm trying to fight to make this industry better through change and better use of imagination while people like you Dreamkin don't want to confess that everything gamers used to be against is now a natural occurrence and just accept that the corporates have a stranglehold of a leash over both the development of games and the mouths of this industry (the media) which I used to hold so dear.

I feel like I'm throwing away my dignity just trying to explain myself to a bunch of casuals who don't give a damn about where this industry might be heading. I guess I'll see you after the second industry crash.... and you know how I'll greet you.

Icarus4578
08-17-2004, 10:04 AM
Makaveli_786 ~ "I posted facts and figures and got flamed, I defended myself, was I wrong for standing up for myself?"

I don't think you're wrong for trying to dissect the hardware, though perhaps you could explain more about the software side of things. But you still made an unfair comparison using raw polygon output Vs full capacity.

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 11:12 AM
Makaveli_786 ~ "I posted facts and figures and got flamed, I defended myself, was I wrong for standing up for myself?"

I don't think you're wrong for trying to dissect the hardware, though perhapsyou could explain more about the software side of things. But you still made an unfair comparison using raw polygon output Vs full capacity.

I admit my mistake, I was comparing pps to rpc but all in all the PS2 still comes out on top when it comes to polies, the DC was an AMAZING piece of machinery as well, in 2000 it murdered computers, the graphics still look stunning today.

When it comes to software the Xbox murders everything in sight, trilinear and bilinear buffering, 4xFSAA..

In fact if it wasnt for these software addons the GC, PS2 and DC would murder the Xbox, the Xbox is a relatively weak console which attributes an extensive amount of software to textures, texturing is important because it makes up for a low amount of polies ten fold.

The texturing in the GC is also great but combined with higher poly count they can get away with less storage which is why the GC discs are only 1.5GB.

The PS2 does an absolute muck up of textures, theyr absolutely terrible, the PS2 is about VERY high poly count but the thing is devs dont use the polies when theyr porting, games are made on PC's and when they port it onto the PS2 theyr not convering it to polies theyr emulating textures through polygons which leaves patches, the PS2 is basically emulating a game if you can even call it that.

The PS2 is hardwired with anti-aliasing and just about every trick u can imagine but its even worse trying to implement it through software.

Couple those two factors and you have a console which isnt difficult to program for its damn near IMPOSSIBLE to program for BUT and this is a BIG BUTT, J-lo propotions and even bigger, if the PS2 is programmed for directly and carefully the results are beyond astonishing, the PS2 rides the wave in power proportions and murders the DC, GC and Xbox, if it ever reachs its potential the eye candy will be murder in cold blood.

All the above shots were real-time in game play action and here are a few more:

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/001.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/002.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/003.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/004.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/005.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/006.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/007.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/008.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/009.jpg

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/010.jpg

Now that KILLS any game on Xbox or DC or GC and those are about 75% of what the PS2 is capable of, when they learn how to master this beast it will murder everything in sight.

Vert1
08-17-2004, 12:50 PM
RE4>all

it be nice to see gt4 for myself running on the PS2 hardware...

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 12:51 PM
running soothly in motion?

Vert listen, plz do us a favor and dont try to talk technical, you make us real techies look like fucking idiots, plz love(provided your a woman) stay out of the big boy conversations, thank you :)

Vert1
08-17-2004, 12:52 PM
Any links to video's I can clearly see it's running on PS2 hardware?

The game looks slick but I still like RE4 better for visual prowess.

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 01:20 PM
A whole page of trailers and ingameplay movies: Clickety Click (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/driving/granturismo4/media.html)

naruto_sensei
08-17-2004, 01:21 PM
my friend owns GT 4:prologue edition and it looks like it runs pretty smooth, of course polyphony said that it wasn't the final product but whatever...

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 01:25 PM
It isnt the final product its a demo, it runs at 30 fps compared to GT4's 60 fps and it has basic textures and about 75% lower polygons than the final versions, I've got GT4: PE and its barely any better than GT3, its only got bigger enviroments and better car handling, thats all.

Axe Wielding Nut
08-17-2004, 01:34 PM
Which means "Where there is multitude(a lot of something), there is also ****"

That used to be my original stance on the sony line of consoles, that they release 1 good game for every 10 ****ty games... for the ps2 the number has increased a bit.

Unfortunatly, Nintendo, those lovable furry rascals that they are don't even get to the 10 by the time PS2 does, so by proportion Nintendo ends up getting a smaller number games, they still get alot of ****ty titles, and now they have to compete with a high amount of quality games on the ps2 library simply because the ps2 library has so many more games.

The more I understood how the ps2 works, the more I actually liked it. Because I stopped and thought about it, when I had an n64, there were only 3 games I could play that lasted months and months of time, and it wasn't because they only had 3 good games, but rather because those were the only games that could last that long for me. I realize that a console with so many ****ty titles, and that little chunk of excellent titles in the ps2 would satisfy me enough if those titles are good enough, and guess what :) they have been. You know why people rag on the gamecube? because thier titles aren't comparing to last gens titles of Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, and even to the fault of casuality, games like Harvest Moon and thier wrestling games were actually more fun in the last gen then this gen for some reason (regarding the harvest moon game, which I loved but not as much as last gen, the wrestling games are worse because they're made by Yukes, who suck balls)

Then you bring up the ****ty construction, but hell Sony is notorious for that, that never stopped them from selling gobs, hell, when you have quality games, alot of people actually overlook it to keep gaming, thats an underhanded business move, but thats what you need to do to get to the top. If quality were a prerequisite for market dominance then inferior products would not be top of the line sell wise. If Nintendo marketted a little better, they wouldn't have made a f-cking purple cube for starters, and they would have used thier Nintendo franchises a little more intelligently. But they wanted quality, and I respect that, even though Sunshine was dog sh-t, and for the most part Wind Waker was a complete disappointment compared to Orcarina of Time, and hopefully compared to the next zelda which will show what the fans really wanted.

Nintendo is conflicted, and thats why people speak of gloom and doom, they're not perfect, and when you're not perfect, people will talk about your flaws, and thier flaws are pretty easy to see. Sony has flaws, but thier flaws are hardware flaws, which are worse but not worse enough to hurt thier business, because what really sells? the console? or the game? if you say the console, then you should be buying an Xbox. You won't be alone, since alot of people have purchased an xbox for that reason. (one of my reasons is coming on September 14th)

When you do something like a business, you get success. Look at the Yankees, look at Sony. This isn't a game Icarus, this is business, we're the only ones playing the games, when you waste your time actually playing the games you put on your console, you're wasting time making business decisions that get more games onto it. Sony doesn't stop putting games on thier console, and they cater those games to mainstream fans that buy through thier parents wallet or through thier stupid consumer blindness, just the very people Nintendo were catering 2 not but 2 gens ago, and are still catering to when they allow these ****ty multi-console games to release to the GC.

I can't hate Sony, because all they're trying to do is make money, and to be honest, they've made it very easy for an entrepaneur like myself to take advantage of thier console. So in the end, Sony did guys like me a favor. Who am I to tell them thier console sucks? For me, its the 2nd best console in the entire race :P With the number 1 selection in good games by sheer number. Nintendo wants to make the best games on the console thier own, thats all fine and good, I'll still support them as a developer, but if I had a choice to play a GC version or a PS2 version of a game, you can guess which version i'd pick.

Joe Redifer
08-17-2004, 03:25 PM
Now that KILLS any game on Xbox or DC or GC and those are about 75% of what the PS2 is capable of, when they learn how to master this beast it will murder everything in sight.
First of all those are replays, not controllable game screens. YES, there is a difference as usually the replays can have extra depth of field filters and whatnot applied that the game itself cannot. Anyway Rallisport Challenge 2 on the Xbox abolutely obliterates all of those screens during actual gameplay.

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/006.jpg
Look at this pic! Look at the green textures of the grass. Look how repetitive and "knitted" they look! Yecch!

Now let's check out some screens from Rallisport challenge 2 on the Xbox, all presented at 640x480 which is the resolution it natively runs at, just like all PS2 games:

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli1.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli2.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli3.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli4.jpg

These are all in game screens, not 3rd person rendered replays. This is what you see as you are controlling the game. And they are far more realistic and better looking than any of the replay shots you provided. Hell even the Xbox version of Toca Race Driver 2 looks a bit better than those shots you provided. Oh and did I mention that Rallisport Challenge 2 can be played in 16:9 widescreen which requires MORE processing power than the standard 4:3 640x480 mode, and it runs at 60fps in that mode as well and never, EVER drops a frame. I highly doubt that Gran Turismo 4 will offer 16:9 widescreen. Few PS2 games do. Hell we'd be lucky if we get progressive scan out of it!

BlindMaphisto
08-17-2004, 03:28 PM
I been meaning to get RSC2 but I keep forgetting. I got the first one and the graphics are indeed the Shiznit.

Makaveli_786
08-17-2004, 03:46 PM
First of all those are replays, not controllable game screens. YES, there is a difference as usually the replays can have extra depth of field filters and whatnot applied that the game itself cannot. Anyway Rallisport Challenge 2 on the Xbox abolutely obliterates all of those screens during actual gameplay.

http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/img/img20040611gt4/006.jpg
Look at this pic! Look at the green textures of the grass. Look how repetitive and "knitted" they look! Yecch!

Now let's check out some screens from Rallisport challenge 2 on the Xbox, all presented at 640x480 which is the resolution it natively runs at, just like all PS2 games:

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli1.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli2.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli3.jpg

http://www.redifer.com/webimages/ralli4.jpg

These are all in game screens, not 3rd person rendered replays. This is what you see as you are controlling the game. And they are far more realistic and better looking than any of the replay shots you provided. Hell even the Xbox version of Toca Race Driver 2 looks a bit better than those shots you provided. Oh and did I mention that Rallisport Challenge 2 can be played in 16:9 widescreen which requires MORE processing power than the standard 4:3 640x480 mode, and it runs at 60fps in that mode as well and never, EVER drops a frame. I highly doubt that Gran Turismo 4 will offer 16:9 widescreen. Few PS2 games do. Hell we'd be lucky if we get progressive scan out of it!

Alright looks like your about to be made an ass out of, firstly most PS2 games are on 16:9, do you even own a PS2, name all the PS2 games that arent 16:9.

On the other hand your screenshots are what us TECHNICIANS like to call localized graphics.

When you show more of the environment you have to present more textures on screen at once, the Rallisport shots only show a little bit of the screen, there is basically no background and what little there is it isnt very indepth, in other words they taxed textures from the environments to localize the textures so the cars and environments look better but are spectacularly smaller.

Also the tracks will be smaller in Rallisport due to intense localized textures, how long are they two minutes each?

Not only that but you said the game doesnt dip below 60 fps?

LMFAO!!

Man your funny, everygame under heavy draw distance jumps way below 60fps, 60fps is a maximum and 30 is a minimum, Xbox has slowdown symptoms due to the NV2a core, if you believe that it never dips below 60fps then god help you!

Now those GT4 shots are not localized theyr extra draw distance, here are closeup shots of the GT4 or localized shots as technicians and developers like to call them:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/ps2_granturismo4/0513/ps2_gt40513_5pm_screen001.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/ps2_granturismo4/0513/ps2_gt40513_5pm_screen002.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/ps2_granturismo4/0513/ps2_gt40513_5pm_screen003.jpg

By the way im a pre-beta tester for GT4, what experience can you talk from?

BlindMaphisto
08-17-2004, 03:55 PM
I think he was confused when he said 16x9 he was probably talking about 480p which most xbox games support and no ps2 games support as far as I know.

Icarus4578
08-17-2004, 03:56 PM
While those GT4 shots look terrific, I own RalliSport Challenge 2 and can attest that it does indeed outperform GT4's visuals. BTW Makaveli_786, there's a TON of tracks in RSC2 and many of them are over five minutes of continual progression (i.e. you don't take laps but continuously drive onward through gorgeous locales with lots of variation). Joe's shots don't do the game justice; there are parts in the game where you can see waaaaay into the distance at friggin' cities over massive sprawling fields, massive mountain cliffs replete with waterfalls and greenery, and the weather effects, lighting, individual blades of grass (even if it is a hardware trick) look beyond incredible. My brother owns a high-definition TV so I can always view RSC2 on his TV if I want to. Also, Ninja Gaiden and the new Dead or Alive easily outperform every game on the PS2. Once again, I can attest to this having the capacity to view them whenever I please on a HDTV.

But still, everybody's just bringing up graphics, graphics, and graphics. How about gameplay, play mechanics, and originality, hmmm??? :cool:

Joe Redifer
08-17-2004, 04:58 PM
Those big pics of GT4 above are way higher resolution than the PS2 is capable of outputting, thus they are poor examples.

I was not confused when talking about 480p or 16:9. I know the difference.
HERE (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/ps2list.htm) is a list of all the PS2 games that have 16:9 and progressive scan. If you are playing a game not on this list in 16:9, you are horizontally stretching a 4:3 screen, which is wrong and shows you care nothing for the proper presentation of the game's intended aspect ratio. The fact that you say virtually all PS2 games support 16:9 proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you know very little about what you speak.

HERE (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/xboxlist.htm) is a list of all the Xbox games that are in 16:9, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Wow. Quite a big difference!

If you want to think most PS2 graphics look better than most Xbox graphics, then that's fine. You can go live in your fantasy land. Have you ever played Rallisport Challenge 2? It does not dip below 60fps... ever. Some of the Rallisport Challenge tracks are over 10 miles long (continuous, not laps!) with lots of variety in the course. Gran Turismo is mostly laps, right?

You say you are a technician. I am a technician as well. What are you a technician of? Seriously, unless you have personally worked on PS2 games and Xbox games, you can't really say the specs of the PS2 are better. I've heard no developer say that. If they have, gimme a link.

Your screenshots are what we like to call localized graphics.
Who cares? I'm talking about what looks best on my screen, not what crunches more numbers. What appears on the screen is far more important than raw computing power.

Icarus, be sure to get the High Def pack for the Xbox if you don't have it already. It rocks! The PS2 has component cables as well, but few games support progressive scan so it's almost not worth it. Even the Gamecube has more games that support progressive scan.

BlindMaphisto
08-17-2004, 05:04 PM
Those big pics of GT4 above are way higher resolution than the PS2 is capable of outputting, thus they are poor examples.

I was not confused when talking about 480p or 16:9. I know the difference.
HERE (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/ps2list.htm) is a list of all the PS2 games that have 16:9 and progressive scan. If you are playing a game not on this list in 16:9, you are horizontally stretching a 4:3 screen, which is wrong and shows you care nothing for the proper presentation of the game's intended aspect ratio. The fact that you say virtually all PS2 games support 16:9 proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you know very little about what you speak.

HERE (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/xboxlist.htm) is a list of all the Xbox games that are in 16:9, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Wow. Quite a big difference!

If you want to think most PS2 graphics look better than most Xbox graphics, then that's fine. You can go live in your fantasy land. Have you ever played Rallisport Challenge 2? It does not dip below 60fps... ever. Some of the Rallisport Challenge tracks are over 10 miles long (continuous not laps!) with lots of variety in the course. Gran Turismo is mostly laps, right?

You say you are a technician. I am a technician as well. What are you a technician of? Seriously, unless you have personally worked on PS2 games and Xbox games, you can't really say the specs of the PS2 are better. I've heard no developer say that. If they have, gimme a link.


Who cares? I'm talking about what looks best on my screen, not what crunches more numbers. What appears on the screen is far more important than raw computing power.

Icarus, be ure to get the High Def pack for the Xbox if you don't have it already. it rocks! The PS2 has component cables as well, but few games support progressive scan so it's almost not worth it. Even the Gamecube has more games that support progressive scan.

:clap:

nice read,

My appologies for incorrect speculation.

Dr. Bombay
08-17-2004, 05:06 PM
Actually, that explains a lot of the reasons why the Van Hellsing game is so god aweful.

BlindMaphisto
08-17-2004, 05:10 PM
I wish I had a HDTV to take advantage of higher resolutions.

Icarus4578
08-17-2004, 05:17 PM
Joe, we have the component cables. Something that's obvious about HDTV is that when you turn it on it makes no sound whatsoever. It's absolutely quite, whereas on my TV (a nice 37" TV) you can hear it whenever it's turned on. Of course, HDTV looks better, but that goes without saying. :cool guy:

Dreamkin
08-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Dreamkin: An apple is red.

Icarus: No it is not red because no pensioned barbershop owner would want their only daughter to have a 69 with married astronaut.


Yes yes. I am evil. It is correct to accuse me of not reading this thread and then answering my post in a totally irrelevant way.

I am not claiming anything or saying anything anymore. Gave it up loong ago when I realized we're not discussing but figting. It is not constructive discussion since it's all like "all I say is right, all you say is wrong because I know EVERYTHING, I AM EVERYTHING" Feels just like an episode of Highlander. Buy hey sometimes it is more fun than watching old Veterinarians' Hospital episodes.

See... As a gamer (and an old one in that) since the time I first layed my hands on a Pang console's paddle (1 dimensional primitive control device. has only 2 directions but hey it is analog. ) I only cared for 1 thing.

1)Am I having fun?

I still am. I am having more fun with my PS2 than with my Xboxes (I have 2) and my Cube. Maybe it's only me. Maybe I am a moron. But somehow PS2 gives me more fun.

Of course everyone is allowed to have no fun with it. Since this is all subjective.

As for the objectivity. Let's work on basic logic a bit. What facts do we have:

PS2 has the biggest game library.
PS2 is the best selling console.
The Media supports PS2 and PS2 games.

Conclusion... KGB is not forcing people to buy PS2s. Somehow people seem to be enjoying it. People keep producing games for PS2. They probably do it because on PS2 it sells. And media keeps making news on PS2. Because making news on PS2 draws more attention to them and makes them sell more magazines and have more clicks.

Am I getting through to you at all??? I don't care if the game is original or not. I only care if it is a good game. I only care about the fun factor. I had more fun with my PS2 than any console and so do most people seem to me. And that is the only thing that counts.

Because that is the only thing that counts for me and for Sony. I play. I am feeling good. Sony sells. Sony feels good. Period. Done. This is business. The business of entertainment. The more people you entertain the more money you earn. Hype does not happen without reason. Media support does not happen out of the blue.

It is all good to see the revolutionary "the good old days are gone, back then gaming was much better" thingie. But really. At some point one should build a slight touch with reality.

The rest is... detail. You do not have fun with you PS2? Ok... Poor you. Tough luck. Maybe next time you will. Don't worry.

But also don't worry about the industry. They are doing pretty well.

(As for Fable... Peter Molyneux is a guy whose ideas work better on the design sheet than on actual screen. Movies wasn't his idea at all... It was kinda ripped off from an idea of Mev Dinc (First Samurai, Last Ninja II) who is right now kinda sad about it. And let us not start about Black And White. I do not like the philisophy of 1st gen developers like Dinc or Molyneux. But I still hope Fable will be worth playing. )

Decado
08-17-2004, 06:58 PM
While those GT4 shots look terrific, I own RalliSport Challenge 2 and can attest that it does indeed outperform GT4's visuals. Wow. How did you manage that? I also own RSC2, but do not own GT4 since it isn't out yet :???:

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if that ended up being the case. RSC2 is an increadible looking game and simply has less to worry about than GT4 so they can pump graphics up more (that and the Xbox is more powerful ;)).

Dreamkin,

Good post :cool guy:

Omnislash005
08-17-2004, 09:37 PM
Dreamkin gets the award for best post on this thread. :cool:

Vert1
08-18-2004, 02:22 AM
Yes Sony deserved the success of their PS2 even though it came out with horrible launch games,shoddy hardware,rarity in stock,and a high price while Dreamcast deserved to die. :rolleyes:I don't know where you are getting the assumption that people are having the most fun with PS2 than their other consoles but forget about quality though let's focus on console sales numbers that are inflated and facts like the media has sold out to PS2.

DarknessTearv2
08-18-2004, 02:32 AM
No, how about we focus on the games? PS2 still has the best selection and it's going to get even better next month. Gamecube isn't going to have more than 5 good games between now and the end of 2005, PS2 is going to have at least 30 good games between now and the end of 2005, maybe more.

Vert1
08-18-2004, 02:34 AM
Ok I'll start:

Metroid Prime=best single player experience

SSBM=best multi-player experience

For the future of GC I'm pretty pumped for RE4,the new zelda,mario128,donkey konga,dk:jungle beat,baten kaitos,Pikmin2,Super Monkey Ball3(if this puppy ever get's revealed),Homeland,Unity,Mario Party6(no controllers),Mario Tennis GC,Golden Sun,Fire Emblem:Trail of the Blue Flame,F-Zero GX2,Animal Crossing2,StarFOx2,Advance Wars:Black Hole Rising,Killer7(although on PS2 only in Japan),Paper Mario2,Tales of Legendia and some more games I can't think of.

DarknessTearv2
08-18-2004, 02:37 AM
Wow, two games! Holy ****! Man maybe I've been wrong all along! OH MY FUCKING GOD! WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!

naruto_sensei
08-18-2004, 03:29 AM
Ok I'll start:

Metroid Prime=best single player experience

SSBM=best multi-player experience

For the future of GC I'm pretty pumped for RE4,the new zelda,mario128,donkey konga,dk:jungle beat,baten kaitos,Pikmin2,Super Monkey Ball3(if this puppy ever get's revealed),Homeland,Unity,Mario Party6(no controllers),Mario Tennis GC,Golden Sun,Fire Emblem:Trail of the Blue Flame,F-Zero GX2,Animal Crossing2,StarFOx2,Advance Wars:Black Hole Rising,Killer7(although on PS2 only in Japan),Paper Mario2,Tales of Legendia and some more games I can't think of.

advance wars: black hole rising... isn't that the name of the GBA game
btw a quarter of the titles you've mentioned haven't been anounced

j_factor
08-18-2004, 03:39 AM
PS2 may have a good library now, but it sold well before that. Even when it had a crap library it was selling. Sales don't indicate much. Most people, if they were to really look at the 32-bit lineups of 1995, would agree that Saturn creamed Playstation in terms of games. Likewise, the steller Turbo lineup of 1990 was leagues ahead of Genesis's respectable lineup for that year.
"If they were so much better, why didn't they sell better?", you ask. The problem is simple. Not everyone who buys a video game system takes the time to really look at what the competition has to offer. People make uninformed purchases. People often buy a console because it's "cool", because of the marketing, because it impressed them in some way, or because it has a particular one or two games that they saw advertised and are interested in, without analyzing which console is actually better, without even determining which console's library is actually superior in their own opinion, because they're simply not paying the full attention necessary in order to judge the whole libraries of different systems. Many people bought a PS2 just because it's PS2, or just because it has GTA, without really looking at the Gamecube and Xbox lineups, or even the full PS2 lineup for that matter.

j_factor
08-18-2004, 03:54 AM
Gamecube isn't going to have more than 5 good games between now and the end of 2005, PS2 is going to have at least 30 good games between now and the end of 2005, maybe more.

You must have really inconsistent taste in games to dislike the Gamecube games that much and like the PS2 games that much. I'm looking forward to Amazing Island, Pikmin 2, Metroid Prime 2, Advance Wars: Under Fire, Donkey Konga, Donkey Konga 2, Unity, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Star Fox, Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 3, Baten Kaitos, Animal Crossing 2, Resident Evil 4, Paper Mario 2, Kuru Kuru Kururin, Giftpia, Odama, Geist, Killer 7, Harvest Moon: A Wonderful Life 2, Homeland, Virtua Quest, Wario Ware 2, and a couple others. Also, we don't know what's coming out until the end of 2005. Tokyo Game Show 2004 hasn't even happened yet, and that generally involves lots of game announcements for the next year. Not to mention E3 2005, quite often games are announced at e3 and released by the end of the year. It's only August. Unless you have a crystal ball, you can't see a full year and a half ahead.

DarknessTearv2
08-18-2004, 04:04 AM
RE4, Baten Kaitos, Paper Mario 2, Star Fox, MAYBE Metroid Prime 2. The only ones that really show promise. Those Donkey Konga games are fucking stupid. Only buy them if you like beatmania/DDR.

j_factor
08-18-2004, 04:44 AM
Those Donkey Konga games are fucking stupid. Only buy them if you like beatmania/DDR.

Because Beatmania and DDR are fucking stupid? :rolleyes:

Freeman
08-18-2004, 04:56 AM
Whoa 5+ pages?
You must really hate the PS2!
...but it's got lots of great games that opther consoles don't have like Winning Eleven and Jak & Daxter, and many other...
Or do you hate it becuase of the hardware?

DarknessTearv2
08-18-2004, 05:17 AM
Because Beatmania and DDR are fucking stupid? :rolleyes:


Obviously.

Dreamkin
08-18-2004, 05:42 AM
Quick cameo appearance from me:

"the PS2 sales numbers are inflated" = Really? How inflated are they really? Is somehow Xbox the best selling console and the aliens are hiding it because if the people realize Xbox's amazing green power, would they be able to connect their boxes and kill the aliens hive mind queen? (preferably bu throwing a huge controller on the alien's head.)

Is it inflated by 2? or 3? Is PS2 not selling THAT much? But indeed how much is it selling? 1 console a year?

I'm gonna give localized numbers. This is Istanbul. My city. Other than me there are about 17 million people living here. I am a full time criminologist and a former compuer game designer. My own team still designs the most beloved (though underground) tabletop RPGs in the country. I am also a professional sound engineer and used to be in a band when criminology came and said "no no no you must focus on ONE job" Now in my free time I am writing stuff for a magazine. Why do I tell this? It means I know an awful lot of people. And those people whom I know and who have a console seem to have a PS2. Sony seem to have won the elections in my city at least. And this says a lot, becuase library is no problem in my city. Everything is pirated. You want gamecube games? You just go and buy some mini-DVDs and get it writed on.

How infalted are the numbers really? So infalted that PS2 is NOT the best selling console? Is this a conspiracy? Are the aliens responsible? How will they kill us superior humans? Afterall if they kill the queen probably the only thing they will succeed in is getting the English very pissed off.

Joe Redifer
08-18-2004, 06:04 AM
By inflated I think he is refering to people who have had their PS2's break down and buy new ones so they can continue playing the games. So, just for an example, say the PS2 has sold 10 units, but two of those units broke down and the people replaced them with new systems. So in actuality only 8 people have PS2's, not 10 like Sony wants you to believe. I have seen a lot of PS2's damaged when they are stored vertically, and I have seen them scratch the hell out of game discs that way as well. Lesson: don't stand your PS2 on it's side!

Vicviper's PS2 won't read CD games at all any more. None. He can't play ICO. And his PS2 system probably has around 300 hours of total use I am guessing. He had to buy an HD Loader, network adaptor, and a hard drive and then install it on MY PS2, load the CD games to the hard drive, and then put the hard drive into HIS PS2 just so he could play the games he already owns on the system he already owns. What a well-built system! But it's a Sony. If it's made by Sony and it had moving parts, chances are it was made on the cheap and will break down sooner than it should. Sony TVs are OK, as are Sony media converters and other things that don't have moving parts that wear. And Sony charges A LOT to repair their own products.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. There are some great games on the PS2, ones that I would be sad if I didn't have them. But absolutely nothing in the PS2 library is revolutionary. They have very few "must have" titles in my opinion. The majority of the library just doesn't appeal to me. But like I said, there are a few system exclusives that are good, and make the system worth owning. Without system exclusives, any system is crap. So if I get a multi-platform game, I get the best version, which is usually the Xbox version except for Need fo' Speed: Undaground Rice Racin'. The PS2 version had an online mode. Anyone who thinks the PS2 version of Soul calibur is technically the best version is a moron and needs to have Lasik eye surgery.

Mainstreme Fan
08-18-2004, 06:07 AM
No, how about we focus on the games? PS2 still has the best selection and it's going to get even better next month. Gamecube isn't going to have more than 5 good games between now and the end of 2005, PS2 is going to have at least 30 good games between now and the end of 2005, maybe more.


If you don`t care about the fact most of them are lame rehash games from a year or 2 ago.

H8TrId
08-18-2004, 06:11 AM
:kill: ps2 have a more focas than the xbox but ppl like xbox betta how stupid r these retailers? :confused:

Icarus4578
08-18-2004, 10:12 AM
Dreamkin ~ "Dreamkin: An apple is red.

Icarus: No it is not red because no pensioned barbershop owner would want their only daughter to have a 69 with married astronaut."

So you're a retard?

Dreamkin ~ "As for the objectivity. Let's work on basic logic a bit. What facts do we have:

PS2 has the biggest game library.
PS2 is the best selling console.
The Media supports PS2 and PS2 games."

So what? You don't bother to bring up how most every game for the console is absolute crap, so who cares if it has the biggest library? I guess in your head the math goes~ Quantity = Quality. If that is so then I guess that the NES and GB are automatically better, just because they have more games. ....No doumbass. They are better because they have BETTER GAMES. As for the media support, Sony has had the vast majority of the media in their back pockets for a long while now, so it's no suprise. That explains why when a magazine like EGM was doing early comparisons of all three of the current consoles they gave the PS2 twice the space. :thumb-up:

Dreamkin ~ "This is business. The business of entertainment. The more people you entertain the more money you earn. Hype does not happen without reason. Media support does not happen out of the blue."

You're right--this is business, and a shady business at that. Ever since Sony stepped in everything has been oddly in their favor. Even when PS2 had one of the worst launches in gaming history the media overinflated coverage of their console. Why? Because Sony practically OWNS them all with their massive marketing support which the media is afraid to lose. That's the ONLY reason why.

Dreamkin ~ "The rest is... detail. You do not have fun with you PS2? Ok... Poor you. Tough luck. Maybe next time you will. Don't worry.

But also don't worry about the industry. They are doing pretty well."

I'm not having fun. Too bad for me that I have to sit here and tolerate the incompetence of stupid game developers who are just shelling out bad remakes and rehashes galore. So I'm sorry if I'm not impressed. As for the industry, well, I predict within five years there will be about half the companies that there are now, thanks to idiots such as yourself. I guess I should just forget how much better previous generations were and sell my soul to Sony.

Decado ~ "Wow. How did you manage that? I also own RSC2, but do not own GT4 since it isn't out yet"

I've seen both games in motion. Case closed.

Omnislash005 ~ "Dreamkin gets the award for best post on this thread."

Yeah, if you're insane.

DarknessTearv2 ~ "No, how about we focus on the games? PS2 still has the best selection and it's going to get even better next month. Gamecube isn't going to have more than 5 good games between now and the end of 2005, PS2 is going to have at least 30 good games between now and the end of 2005, maybe more."

Is this based on presumption or have you already played all of the upcoming games for both GC and PS2? Just curious.

DarknessTearv2 ~ "RE4, Baten Kaitos, Paper Mario 2, Star Fox, MAYBE Metroid Prime 2. The only ones that really show promise. Those Donkey Konga games are fucking stupid. Only buy them if you like beatmania/DDR."

I'd add that you should only buy Halo 2 if you like FPS. Only buy Gran Turismo 4 if you like racing simulators. Only buy GTA4 if you want more-of-the-same. :rolleyes:

Freeman ~ "Or do you hate it becuase of the hardware?"

That's a major part of it. Sony is the root cause of my hatred. They care nothing for quality gaming. They only care about being showy, the most popular thing. They build faulty hardware so that when people return their broken PS2s and get refurbished consoles, or even have to pay for a new one, they can inflate their installed user-base figures. They work HEAVILY behind the scenes with the media to inflate hype for their own products and produce negative things about the competition. SCEA hates 2D games and Sony Japan does nothing about it. Etc. etc.

Dreamkin ~ "Quick cameo appearance from me:

"the PS2 sales numbers are inflated" = Really? How inflated are they really? Is somehow Xbox the best selling console and the aliens are hiding it because if the people realize Xbox's amazing green power, would they be able to connect their boxes and kill the aliens hive mind queen? (preferably bu throwing a huge controller on the alien's head.)"

Wow. That was not funny in the least. Don't quit your day job.

Dreamkin ~ "How infalted are the numbers really? So infalted that PS2 is NOT the best selling console? Is this a conspiracy? Are the aliens responsible? How will they kill us superior humans? Afterall if they kill the queen probably the only thing they will succeed in is getting the English very pissed off."

I can only shake my head at your utter stupidity. You could be president of Sony and it doesn't mean Jack or sh*t because the situation is constantly the same.

Freeman
08-18-2004, 10:41 AM
Why SCEA hates 2D I will never know....

time&space
08-18-2004, 12:38 PM
Because it doesn't sell...They concentrate on the mainstream market and not the cult/genre market. Most mainstream gamers are enamored with 3-d graphics...

Dreamkin
08-18-2004, 12:40 PM
Aaaah. Do I hear the familiar tingling of the frustration bell?

Again you did not even THINK about the things written. I may not be funny. But I am laughing. And watching the Icarus vs All match in which one ego clashes with the world regardless of the topic and often with topics especially designed to attract people's attention. It happens at a certain age. The need to pull attention. As it usually happens one also sees an intense lack of experience or cerebral cortex in the proceedings. One should grow out of it.

Quality and Quantity... Focus... Think! I mean... really THINK... Basic logic. Start with 1+1=2. Quality... Quantity... For once instead of things thougt to you start thinking yourself. The saddest thing happens when one in trying to oppose the clichee's falls in to the clichee's of opposing clichee's.

None of which gives you the right to insult me or anyone else personally. No one insulted you. We were discussing. I am discussing personally. People are presenting opinions and backing them up with consistent comments. That way you reach synthesis. Learn new things. Etc. This never happens when one party says : you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, I'm right. And you are idiot because you are wrong. Insulting people is not only rude and impolite but it also is a nice way of getting banned.

If we're to start exchanging insults trust me to trust myself in competition. But really it is not worth it. For the topic of this discussion I recommend basic lessons in maths, logic, marketing, industrial design, disputatio and (of course) manners.

Icarus4578
08-18-2004, 01:14 PM
Coherent writing is obviously beyond your scope Dreamkin. Stop trying to make yourself sound like you have a superior intellect and greater wisdom. I'm far from alone in a lot of my beliefs, in case you hadn't noticed (but that's to be expected since you don't bother reading what other people have to say). You cannot even spell "clich?" correctly for crying out loud.

And you claim that I'm insulting? Have you even bothered to read the things you write?

~ "Dreamkin: An apple is red.

Icarus: No it is not red because no pensioned barbershop owner would want their only daughter to have a 69 with married astronaut."

~ "How infalted are the numbers really? So infalted that PS2 is NOT the best selling console? Is this a conspiracy? Are the aliens responsible? How will they kill us superior humans? Afterall if they kill the queen probably the only thing they will succeed in is getting the English very pissed off."

Not only are you insulting with your mundane attempt at trying to make me sound like I'm some hysterical lunatic but you also seem to enjoy placing yourself in a bubble wherein you pretend you're the sole focus of what is right and that everything I say is automatically wrong. You're the one who needs to learn proper judgement. You post, I respond. You post an idiotic attempt at making me sound stupid, I'll let you have it. If you can't take the heat then stop throwing fuel on the fire.

By the way Mr. I'm-smarter-than-you, it's improper to say "I recommend basic lessons in maths", but rather "I recommend basic lessons in math", etc. You're trying to sound intelligent and yet you stand by media propoganda and inflated statistics. I am correct in my assessment that quantity does not equal quality in any way whatsoever, and no matter how hard you try to discredit me it doesn't change that hard fact. Granted, with an increase in quantity there comes more of a chance for more good games to manifest themselves, and indeed this is the case in many circumstances. However, quantity in and of itself is no ruler by which one can attempt to measure how many quality titles that there is in actuality. That's like trying to say that just because artist A has the more expensive tools than artist B that he's going to create a better work of art; that's just foolhardy.

Then again, maybe you're completely hopeless -- I don't know. So you're a criminologist in Istanbul. Congratulations. Are you special now? I'll let you know when injecting such info is relevant in a forum discussion about videogames. :rolleyes:

BlindMaphisto
08-18-2004, 01:25 PM
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.

Omnislash005
08-18-2004, 01:29 PM
Vicviper's PS2 won't read CD games at all any more.

When he puts the game in and it starts spinning does it make a god awful scratching noise?

Icarus4578
08-18-2004, 01:31 PM
I can tell you from experience that when I had put my Super Castlevania IV soundtrack CD in my PS2 the first thing I heard was heavy scratching, so I immediately ejected the tray only to find that the bottom of my CD had been scratched to hell with circular marks all over it. I had to replace that soundtrack. I didn't pay Sony for that to happen, did I?

Omnislash005
08-18-2004, 01:39 PM
Well if its making a god awful noise but its not actually scratching the cd and the ps2 cant read the game I know an easy way to fix it.

Icarus4578
08-18-2004, 01:42 PM
And that is....?

Omnislash005
08-18-2004, 02:13 PM
Get 2 pieces off scotch tape that are identical in length and put them on opposite sides of the cover of the cd(Where it has the title of game and rating I forget what the hell you call it). It should look like this.


l
0
l

The circle being the center of the cd. I cant center both the lines for some reason but they should be centered. I gurantee it should work if done properly, it did for my ps2. If you try some of your old ps games and the ps2 doesnt read the games then apply the same method.

DarknessTearv2
08-18-2004, 02:56 PM
Some people have the worst luck. I got my PS2 when it first came out (pre-order) and it's still alive and well. I play games on it plenty. And yes, it's a bad idea to stand it on it's side, whoever thought that was okay to do was on crack.

Vert1
08-18-2004, 03:19 PM
advance wars: black hole rising... isn't that the name of the GBA game
btw a quarter of the titles you've mentioned haven't been anounced

Yea I meant advance wars:under fire or whatever.What titles haven't been announced?Tales of Legendia????I know Namco is working on that game.Sega has to be working on SMB3 I remember talking in a forum to ATMA about it.Those gaMES that I listed are all coming.Now hopefully Giftpia and Nintendo puzzle collection will come over to the US as well.


oh yea there's Odama....

Icarus4578
08-18-2004, 04:13 PM
I've never stood my PS2 on its side.

Omnislash005
08-18-2004, 04:17 PM
I don't really see why anyone would want to, it's pointless.

j_factor
08-18-2004, 04:23 PM
Because it doesn't sell...They concentrate on the mainstream market and not the cult/genre market. Most mainstream gamers are enamored with 3-d graphics...

But they approve plenty of 3d **** that not even the most optimistic person would think is going to sell, no questions asked.

Axe Wielding Nut
08-18-2004, 04:43 PM
Buy the flip top case, then replace the current PS2 case with that, it helps you remove the factor of that horrible ps2 drive, and also allows you to pirate a little easier :evilsmile

I'm sure you'd approve of that Icarus, you smelly bastard

naruto_sensei
08-18-2004, 08:41 PM
Yea I meant advance wars:under fire or whatever.What titles haven't been announced?Tales of Legendia????I know Namco is working on that game.Sega has to be working on SMB3 I remember talking in a forum to ATMA about it.Those gaMES that I listed are all coming.Now hopefully Giftpia and Nintendo puzzle collection will come over to the US as well.


oh yea there's Odama....
stuff like mario 128, golden sun, monkey ball 3 and some other ones haven't been anounced yet...
I'll list the PS2 games coming out:

metal gear solid 3
GTA: san andreas
final fantasy XII
xenosaga episode II
god of war
gran turismo 4
silent hill 4(also on xbox not on cube)
jak 3
killzone
neo contra
ratchet and clank 3
rumble roses (it could turn out good...)
ace combat 5
burnout 3 (also for XBOX but not for cube :()
mercenaries (also for XBOX but not for cube...)
virtua quest (also on gamecube)
devil may cry 3
destroy all humans (also on xbox, not on cube)
kingdom hearts II
tekken 5
nanobreaker (from the producer of the castlevania series)
gradius V
phantom brave
star ocean 3
the red star (also for xbox)
taiko drum master (from the makers of donkey konga)
shin megami tensei:nocturne
digital devil saga
katamari damacy (about as inovative as odama)
shadow hearts II
Ys IV
megaman x:command mission

(given the succes of symphonia these these titles have some chance of making it here)
tales of symphonia
tales of rebirth
tales of destiny2/eternity

Vert1
08-18-2004, 10:31 PM
All those titles have been announced.They just haven't been revealed. :sweat:

GC is still kicking and SSBM is still the best multi-player game of all time.

Renegade X
08-19-2004, 12:22 AM
All those titles have been announced.They just haven't been revealed. :sweat:

GC is still kicking and SSBM is still the best multi-player game of all time.


I think somebody is forgetting that theres something called Counter-Strike...

::goes back to DLing CS:S::

Vert1
08-19-2004, 12:34 AM
No I love me Smash Brothers something fierce that nothing else compares to it.There are tons of other multi-player games that are great but I think SSBM is the most innovative and fun one out there.Ahh Ness pwnage....

Icarus4578
08-19-2004, 09:20 AM
metal gear solid 3 ~ :o
GTA: san andreas ~ If you own GTA3 and/or VC, what's the point?
final fantasy XII ~ Might be good. We'll see.
xenosaga episode II ~ ....no.
god of war ~ Could be good.
gran turismo 4 ~ Will be the best racing simulator.
silent hill 4(also on xbox not on cube) ~ Not really interested.
jak 3 ~ No.
killzone ~ ??
neo contra ~ Looks stupid.
ratchet and clank 3 ~ No.
rumble roses (it could turn out good...) ~ Don't know about it.
ace combat 5 ~ Looks promising.
burnout 3 (also for XBOX but not for cube ) ~ Not interested.
mercenaries (also for XBOX but not for cube...) ~ No clue.
virtua quest (also on gamecube) ~ Doesn't look good, but it could turn out to be fun.
devil may cry 3 ~ Should be good.
destroy all humans (also on xbox, not on cube) ~ Looks stupid.
kingdom hearts II ~ No.
tekken 5 ~ Shows promise, but Namco has to do something to reinvent this tired series.
nanobreaker (from the producer of the castlevania series) ~ Could be good.
gradius V ~ Looks promising but short-lived.
phantom brave ~ No thank you.
star ocean 3 ~ I don't know if I've ever played a SO game before.
the red star (also for xbox) ~ ??
taiko drum master (from the makers of donkey konga) ~ ??
shin megami tensei:nocturne ~ Looks good, but doesn't seem like it will match previous installments.
digital devil saga ~ Ditto.
katamari damacy (about as innovative as odama) ~ ??
shadow hearts II ~ I dunno.
Ys IV ~ Looks very good.
megaman x:command mission ~ Not interested.

(given the succes of symphonia these these titles have some chance of making it here)
tales of symphonia ~ I'll let you know when I review the GC version. (Yes, I know that stuff is added to this version, but if this turns out to be mundane then it doesn't really matter. BTW, I'm quite far along in Destiny II and loving it.)
tales of rebirth ~ Dunno.
tales of destiny2/eternity ~ What's the story with this title?

I'd also add the Wild Arms remake, the upcoming new Ridge Racer (being developed in Canada....), and a few others.

time&space
08-19-2004, 10:47 AM
But they approve plenty of 3d **** that not even the most optimistic person would think is going to sell, no questions asked.

Exactly. Most 3-d isn't done right. Even if it is i still prefer 2-d anyday(when done right). 2-d forever!

As far as the upcomming games go...it's all about STAR OCEAN :bigsmile:

blueskied
08-21-2004, 02:12 AM
I'm sure you'd approve of that Icarus, you smelly bastard

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's the funniest thing I've read in weeks.

Why do you people keep posting in this topic anyway? :confused:
It's a topic about nothing.

Drunken Savior
08-21-2004, 03:24 AM
It was all a ploy to get you to start posting again you lurking bastard! ;)

Icarus4578
08-21-2004, 04:09 AM
Sure thing Blueskied. And why are you lurking here anyway? I guess you haven't got anything better to do with your time.

time&space ~ "Exactly. Most 3-d isn't done right. Even if it is i still prefer 2-d anyday(when done right). 2-d forever!"

:cool guy: No way of denying it--2D has proven itself to be the best format for gaming. Nowadays everything has to try and be realistic, but they often forget about gameplay in exchange for all that fancy plastic. There was 10 times the imagination and creativity present when 2D still reigned. Ok, ok, so that's not really the fault of 3D, but 2D does allow for more artistic expression, though perhaps a wider amount of gameplay is permissible in 3D. But thus far 3D hasn't proven to be more fun than 2D.

Vert1
08-23-2004, 11:51 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: That's the funniest thing I've read in weeks.

Why do you people keep posting in this topic anyway? :confused:
It's a topic about nothing.

This is a thread about how Sony has fucked it's customers over.It's a thread of how Sony can hardly make games by themselves worth a damn.It's a thread about how Sony has turned the industry into crap.It's a thread about all the negativity Sony has caused the entire industry.This thread is a thread we're people can show their distaste for Sony's choices with blocking games due to graphics.It's a thread you better get used to cause it's not going off the first page.

Games used to be good than Sony decided to mess everything up and enter the industry.Sony gamers are the worst with their awefull Madden games and thinking GTA:3 is the best game of all time.They all make me sick.They don't know about quality games they all just flock together like sheep of what the coolest/maturist game is out for their system.

Nintendo better end Sony's ruling before the industry pulls an Atari.Than again I don't think PS2 gamers will realize that Madden is the same **** packaged every year till the next decade.Bastards all of them.Games like Baten Kaitos are going to fall down to another rehashed GTA.

Makaveli_786
08-23-2004, 12:01 PM
This is a thread about how Sony has fucked it's customers over.It's a thread of how Sony can hardly make games by themselves worth a damn.It's a thread about how Sony has turned the industry into crap.It's a thread about all the negativity Sony has caused the entire industry.This thread is a thread we're people can show their distaste for Sony's choices with blocking games due to graphics.It's a thread you better get used to cause it's not going off the first page.

Games used to be good than Sony decided to mess everything up and enter the industry.Sony gamers are the worst with their awefull Madden games and thinking GTA:3 is the best game of all time.They all make me sick.They don't know about quality games they all just flock together like sheep of what the coolest/maturist game is out for their system.

Nintendo better end Sony's ruling before the industry pulls an Atari.Than again I don't think PS2 gamers will realize that Madden is the same **** packaged every year till the next decade.Bastards all of them.Games like Baten Kaitos are going to fall down to another rehashed GTA.

I think I'm going to set up a poll and get you banned with some other members posts, why cant you just live and let live, why do you have to bash everything, you know how stupid you make yourself look, I honestly cant believe the moderators let this go on, all you do is bash everything that isnt Nintendo, what is the purpose of you being here, why do we even need you here, your not even funny anymore.

Icarus made this topic, when I presented him with the facts he decided not to argue with me, no offense to him but my technological and industry knowledge exceedingly surpassed him due to my involvement with the games industry in the past and my computer engineering skills.

Fact is the dude who started this topic went back on what he said, why is this still open, there were no facts at all stated, all it was is opinions passed off as facts, pretty ignorant opinions in most respects as well, threads like this should be closed right away because all they amount to is flaming, theres nothing like tearing somebody a new one but starting a topic just to cause trouble, I might email one of the moderators in hope they close this thread if I can be bothered to.

Vert1
08-23-2004, 12:03 PM
Everything said has meaning.Everything said is generally true.I wouldn't suggest anyone getting banned as it might just be you.

Icarus4578
08-23-2004, 12:12 PM
Pretty much on the spot there Vert1. Sony has sucked out all of the excitement of this industry like a blood sucking leech. No longer can I take delight in looking inside the newest game magazines at really interesting upcoming software because it all looks the same. Everybody has been misled into believing titles like GTA, MGS, and GT are the pinnacle of quality gaming and that everything else should try and be the same. I just played Astro Boy on GBA and it's better than 99% of the PS2 games that I've played, if not 100% (and I've played a lot of them). Recently I played Ghosthunter for a little while and it stunned me how awful the camera and controls were. And they call titles like this great! Then they throw a hissy-fit when Resident Evil heads for another console, saying it's just more of the same, even though it's been reinvented from the ground-up. I guess none of these Sony whores have ever taken a look in the mirror because pretty much every new game is just an older PS2 game repackaged with more fancy graphics.

To say this thread is pointless is pathetic and shows jealousy, if nothing else. I suppose there's a reason why it's already one of the biggest threads ever placed on these fourms, and only in about a month's timeframe. I didn't even originally put it in the Sony forums but rather in the Nintendo forums because I was so sick and tired of watching all the Sony heads come into the Nintendo forums and ruin them.

I'll give the few PS2 developers who actually develop a couple quality games their due: Capcom (DMC, SF Anniversary Collection), Falcom/Konami (Ys VI, Gradius V), Sega (Virtua Fighter 4 Evo), etc. But Sony has almost completely taken the joy out of this industry with their crap PS2 console, the only console that I've ever purchased which broke down on me three times in a row within less than three years. There's no chance that I'll bother with the PS3 or PSP. I've had it with Sony.

Icarus4578
08-23-2004, 12:14 PM
Makaveli_786, actually I haven't gone back on anything I said. The PS2 is unquestionably the weakest of the three consoles. I'm almost embarrassed to have paid money for it. I should've waited until three years after the launch before purchasing it.

Makaveli_786
08-23-2004, 12:14 PM
Everything said has meaning.Everything said is generally true.I wouldn't suggest anyone getting banned as it might just be you.


Yeah but cant you put it in a nicer way, cant you say I disagree with what Sony are doing, I do not prefer the PS2 over the gamecube instead of "**** sony, die sony, sony fucked up the world, Nintendo are the best, I wanan **** Mario in the ass, Luigis next", your consistent mumbling just becomes a pain in the ass, if you have an opinion to state do it in a orderly manner and if your opinion is so strong then back it up with some facts, I honestly dont even know why yo havent been banned yet, you have to tech knowledge or industry knowlegdge.

For example you say Sony messed up the industry, when the PS1 and PS2 make up the majority of worldwide console sales and have drive the future for games, theyve made gaming as big as it is now, theyve made console gaming as big PC gaming, theyve basically kept the industry alive, if it wasnt for Sony nobody would give a rats ass or look twice at the console market but 85 million console sales and over a 1000 games attract attention.

Your trapped in your own little imaginery world and Nintendo are changing as well, you cant run against the current no matter who you are, get with it or get out, its that simple.

Icarus4578
08-23-2004, 12:16 PM
85 million my ass.

Vert1
08-23-2004, 12:25 PM
Yeah but cant you put it in a nicer way, cant you say I disagree with what Sony are doing, I do not prefer the PS2 over the gamecube instead of "**** sony, die sony, sony fucked up the world, Nintendo are the best, I wanan **** Mario in the ass, Luigis next", your consistent mumbling just becomes a pain in the ass, if you have an opinion to state do it in a orderly manner and if your opinion is so strong then back it up with some facts, I honestly dont even know why yo havent been banned yet, you have to tech knowledge or industry knowlegdge.

For example you say Sony messed up the industry, when the PS1 and PS2 make up the majority of worldwide console sales and have drive the future for games, theyve made gaming as big as it is now, theyve made console gaming as big PC gaming, theyve basically kept the industry alive, if it wasnt for Sony nobody would give a rats ass or look twice at the console market but 85 million console sales and over a 1000 games attract attention.

Your trapped in your own little imaginery world and Nintendo are changing as well, you cant run against the current no matter who you are, get with it or get out, its that simple.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are out of it not me.First the crap about GTA:VC outselling Mario Bros.3 as the best selling game of all time than Half-Life2 on PS2 than Halo2 being able to be done better on PS2 than XBOX than you treating everyone like scum only to be completely destroyed in an argument with numerous "facts" proven wrong to you and now this.The industry would be doing just fine without Sony.Now it's in decline(see Japan).

You're a joke.

Makaveli_786
08-23-2004, 12:26 PM
Makaveli_786, actually I haven't gone back on anything I said. The PS2 is unquestionably the weakest of the three consoles. I'm almost embarrassed to have paid money for it. I should've waited until three years after the launch before purchasing it.

I provided you with facts and figures, the figures you provided were wrong in the link you provided to prove me wrong, now give me your interpretation of weak, tell me where it is weaker, in fact write out the specs and well see whats weaker, fact is you left the post right away and didnt reply, your last reply was a flame you made no attempt to delve into tech savvy details, now that to me is giving up, you made damn sure to not argue with me again throughout the whole post until I just called you out.

Anyway back to topic, so which part is the PS2 weaker?

Makaveli_786
08-23-2004, 12:29 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are out of it not me.First the crap about GTA:VC outselling Mario Bros.3 than Half-Life2 on PS2 than Halo2 being able to be done better on PS2 than XBOX than you treating everyone like scum only to be completely destroyed in an argument with numerous "facts" proven wrong to you and now this.The industry would be doing just fine without Sony.Now it's in decline(see Japan).

You're a joke.

LOL I'm a joke huh?

Your the one whoose being tore a new ******* consecutively, everbody laughs at your posts rather than reply, bemian takes your whole life as a joke and most members try to stay far from you as possible, I provided the link where the director of HL2 said he was trying to port it to the PS2, You still havent proven me wrong on GTA:VC outselling a SINGLE Mario game on a SINGLE platform and like I said Halo 2 would be done better just without the triliean and bilinear buffering(LOL you dont even know what that means, maybe I should put it in lame terms for idiots like you).

Icarus4578
08-23-2004, 12:30 PM
It's rather scary to think about what's gonna happen to this once-beloved industry if Sony has its way. They have single-handedly turned it on its head and made it mainstream, which is the exact opposite of what good gaming is all about. Gaming was never meant to attract everybody, it was just supposed to represnt high art qualities and playability. These elements lend themselves directly to appeal for the gamer, not the casual consumer which is an unstable phenomenon. Sony achieved widespread acceptance, and this success was predicated by the game media which, basically, handed them the industry in a golden basket. Gaming is not about who can sell 50 million consoles but rather who can make the best games/product. Sony has done neither.

Icarus4578
08-23-2004, 12:32 PM
First link ~ http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/439/Xbox-Specs-Updated That's confirmation from a DEVELOPER that the X-Box is more powerful than the PS2.

Vert1
08-23-2004, 12:32 PM
LOL I'm a joke huh?

Your the one whoose being tore a new ******* consecutively, everbody laughs at your posts rather than reply, bemian takes your whole life as a joke and most members try to stay far from you as possible, I provided the link where the director of HL2 said he was trying to port it to the PS2, You still havent proven me wrong on GTA:VC outselling a SINGLE Mario game on a SINGLE platform and like I said Halo 2 would be done better just without the triliean and bilinear buffering(LOL you dont even know what that means, maybe I should put it in lame terms for idiots like you).

I claim Mario Bros 3(bar SMB) is the best selling game of all time.You disagree.Now i've posted my sources on sales and no one is going to argue with me over the Mario sales.You on the otherhand have not posted any and have been quoted along the lines of "I have some sources telling me yadda yadda".PROVE IT!SORRY YOU CANT!

Well the fact that Valve are trying to put it on all three consoles might help but I dont think Half Life 2 will conquer GTA SA, GTA SA is the second best selling series on the planet after Final Fantasy, it exceeds sales of ALL Mario games of which there are 26.

In the last twenty years, over 160 million Mario games have been sold. Topping the list, more than 40 million copies of Super Mario Bros. were sold on the NES and 20.6 million copies of Super Mario World on SNES. However, because these games were bundled with console hardware, their sales may not be fairly compared to other games.To this day Super Mario Bros. 3 remains the best-selling video game of all time never bundled with console hardware, having sold 17.28 million copies.

http://www.gamecubicle.com/features-mario-units_sold_sales.htm

please wither away back to where you spawned from.