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View Full Version : Xbox outsold in Japan by the Dreamcast... that was crazy enough. And now...


Tifa's Knight
04-18-2002, 08:23 PM
It's been outsold by the Wonderswan Color. I'm not trying to start a war with Xbox fans here, but I'm pretty curious to hear your takes on this all-time low. I mean, it was bad, but 1,800 units in a week is astronomically bad. I know the GC didn't sell very well at first either, but it was never THIS bad.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/357/357591p1.html

emagius
04-19-2002, 12:17 AM
What can I say? Microsoft came in so freakin' arrogant -- computer users of the world by and far have lapped up inferior MS products for years, and Microsoft thought the same would happen on the console side of things. They thought wrong, especially in the foreign markets.


OT: Please, no images in sigs. Signatures were meant to be short and sweet bits of text, no more. I'd prefer it if vB Code ws disabled as well -- the only people who use it seem to overwhelmingly be fanboys or idiots who can neither spell nor punctuate, but feel that adding bright colors and big fonts makes them appear more intelligent.

dvdjedi
04-19-2002, 04:01 AM
Let me get this straight, emagius. You're saying that the Xbox is an "inferior MS product"? And that M$ was arrogant to try and enter the console market? (was Sony similarly arrogant when they decided to launch the Playstation back in '95?) And that is the reason that the Xbox isn't doing well in Japan? LMAO! Have you ever tried the Xbox? And I don't mean for 2 minutes in a store. The Xbox is currently the most powerful console around. That's a fact, like it or not. So you lose credibility right there.

The reason for the poor sales in Japan is simply lack of quality software THAT APPEALS TO JAPANESE GAMERS. The Xbox launched with no RPGs & that is the most popular genre in Japan. Without a strong Japanese centered lineup, the Xbox won't sell in Japan. It's that simple.

In Europe M$ obviously didn't appreciate that such a high price for the system would affect sales (is that arrogance? perhaps...) and they quickly addressed the situation & lowered the price.

I currently own the PS2, GCN, & Xbox and like them all. But please spare me the M$ bashing. You're just plain wrong.

http://citainus.fateback.com/dumb

Black Ace
04-19-2002, 05:34 AM
Here is something I came accross a while ago concerning Japanese feeling in regards toward Microsoft's Xbox:

A Japanese survey conducted by Nikkei IT regarding Microsoft's Xbox has yielded some surprising results. Over a month-long period the study surveyed 1378 people, 95 percent of which were male. Of those surveyed, 76 percent described themselves as avid game players who have purchased two or more game consoles already. Below is a specific breakdown by question and results from the survey.

Question: Xbox costs 34800 yen, is that too high?

Yes ? 68%
No ? 21%
Unsure - 11%

Question: Do you plan to purchase Xbox?

Yes - 21%
No - 57%
Unsure - 22%

Question: If you want to purchase an Xbox, which of the following have influenced your decision (multiple responses allowed)?

Most Efficient - 75%
Broadband - 59%
Software - 54%
DVD Playback - 24%
Microsoft Brand - 23%
Other Reasons - 14%
Design - 13%

Question: If you don't want to purchase an Xbox, which of the following have influenced your decision (multiple responses allowed)?

Poor Software - 56%
Prefer Other Consoles - 55%
Poor Design - 47%
Microsoft Brand - 37%
Other Reasons - 19%
Poor Performance - 9%

Question: What other capabilities would you like to see on Xbox?

Nothing - 46%
Windows PC Compatibility - 29%
Other Console Compatibility - 24%
Keyboard/Mouse - 15%
Others - 10%

Question: What Xbox capabilities do you think are unnecessary?

Nothing - 68%
Hard disk - 15%
Broadband - 14%
DVD - 13%
Others - 7%

Question: What other game consoles do you own?

PlayStation 2 - 68%
PSone - 66%
Dreamcast - 39%
Others - 39%
GameBoy Advance - 31%
Nintendo 64 - 26%
Gamecube - 17%
None - 5%

Question: On an average day, how long do you play games?

Less than 1 hour - 57%
1-2 Hours - 28%
2-3 Hours - 8%
3-4 Hours - 3%
4+ Hours - 3%

Question: Gender?

Male - 95%
Female - 5%

Question: Age?

Less than 19 - 9%
20-29 - 49%
30-39 - 33%
40-49 - 7%
50-59 - 1%
60-69 - 1%

Question: Occupation?

Office Worker - 58%
Student - 21%
Self-employed - 6%
Part-time Worker - 5%
Others - 5%
Unemployed - 3%
Manager - 1%
Housewife - 1%

littlesushi
04-19-2002, 06:55 AM
"users of the world by and far have lapped up inferior MS products for years"

Dude, what the hell are you talking about inferior. What OS are you running right now? What browser are you surfing with? I bet there all made by microsoft right? And if so, there must be a reason while SO many people use there products. So dont start about microsoft products being inferior, the main reason i never posted at the gamespot forums is because i could not stand everyone and there Anti-Microsoft attitudes. Yes i am aware that Microsoft is selling like garbage in Japan, but just give it some time dude. Microsoft DOES know what there doing and they will do anything to adjust.

Pikachu
04-19-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Bill
Question: Xbox costs 34800 yen, is that too high?

Yes ? 68%
No ? 21%
Unsure - 11%

Question: If you don't want to purchase an Xbox, which of the following have influenced your decision (multiple responses allowed)?

Poor Software - 56%
Prefer Other Consoles - 55%
Poor Design - 47%
Microsoft Brand - 37%
Other Reasons - 19%
Poor Performance - 9%




It seems like Asians don't like Microsoft very much, the PS2 was launched at 39800 yen and they have sold 1 million units in one week, and now they think XBOX's 34800 yen is too high!?

But I do agree that the design of XBOX is not very good, and there are not enough quality software to choose from (or coming up).

Bishamon
04-19-2002, 10:07 AM
Well, Microsoft knew from the start that it would be an uphill battle in Japan. I mean, even the GC has had a tough time in Japan! Now the XBox launched after PS2 had been out for a LONG time, and the GC grabbed up most of whatever was left. The only Japanese buying XBox's are those who probably already have both the PS2 and GC and just have to buy all consoles. I was amazed that Microsoft managed to get any exclusive Japanese titles! That being said, I think you will see a resurgence in sales when titles like Panzer Dragoon X and Sega GT 2002 hit the market, but Microsoft should concentrate on cementing their presence in North America and encourage sales in Europe. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, people just won't buy a certain console. Look at the Dreamcast; it had the most successful launch in history, more months than not it held most of the top 5 'most wanted' titles in Japan, the majority of 'most played' arcade titles were either Sega titles available on Dreamcast, or 3rd party titles available on Dreamcast, and yet it still sold like shit. I just can't figure people out, sometimes.

Nokman
04-20-2002, 02:42 AM
I think everybody in here has made some very good points. In order for the Xbox to sell well in japan they need to attract japanese gamers. The only game I could really think that they would enjoy at the moment is DOA3 as fighting games are pretty much loved all over the world. I don't really see japanese gamers going for Halo, (I don't really remember many FPS selling millions in japan) which is fine, leaves more Halo for me!

Just to add my 2 cents i think that MS might have been smart to invest in SquareSoft before Sony did, or heck invest in them now. If they had done it before Sony it would have secured a spot for FFXI (and who knows with all the rumors going on this game might appear on xbox) on their console. Even if they invest now they would be able to make some cash off the profits when FFXI is released.

Personally i'm glad that somebody entered the console arena instead of just having Sony and Nintendo. I think that if somebody hadn't steped in to turn up heat it would basically be Sony for adults and Nintendo for kids (I realize nintendo has grown up games and sony has kids games, but you get the point). A little variety is necessary to keep the market from becoming bland.

Black Ace
04-20-2002, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Nokman


Just to add my 2 cents i think that MS might have been smart to invest in SquareSoft before Sony did, or heck invest in them now. If they had done it before Sony it would have secured a spot for FFXI (and who knows with all the rumors going on this game might appear on xbox) on their console. Even if they invest now they would be able to make some cash off the profits when FFXI is released.





Actually Microsoft wanted to buy Square, but Square didn't take the bait. I'd guess they wanted to stay independant rather than working exclusively for Microsoft forever, how that Square has gone back to Nintendo and has made numerous comments that they wanted to support the Xbox as well with software.

Enix is another company to look out for, Dragon Quest is, I think, a lot more popular than Final Fantasy.

Software and content is what gamers want, until Microsoft have those that has mass market appeal, they won't likely make a major impact in the Japanese market.

oerjaN
04-20-2002, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by littlesushi
"users of the world by and far have lapped up inferior MS products for years"

Dude, what the hell are you talking about inferior. What OS are you running right now? What browser are you surfing with? I bet there all made by microsoft right? And if so, there must be a reason while SO many people use there products. So dont start about microsoft products being inferior, the main reason i never posted at the gamespot forums is because i could not stand everyone and there Anti-Microsoft attitudes. Yes i am aware that Microsoft is selling like garbage in Japan, but just give it some time dude. Microsoft DOES know what there doing and they will do anything to adjust.

chill dude! microsoft software IS inferior. im on a microsoft OS
right now and i don't like it.
however, the reason that microsoft's OS's are so widely spread
all originates in the economical strategies from the IBM PC
and MS DOS days.

as a couple of examples where MS sowtfare is inferior:
Security
Stability
Performance

i can keep on going but don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing MS.

what i don't understand is why you and other people are defending
them.

-

and that xb is the most powerful console is a pretty stupid thing
to say, it all depends on what you're measuring, all consoles have
their strong points. now call me a fanboy or whatever dudes but
while GCN, XB and PS2 all have their strong points there is just one
console that has it's really really clear limits, and unfortunately for
some of you that is the XB.

EFWWES
04-20-2002, 10:05 AM
In Firstday Sales the XBOX In Japan did indeed out Sell the Dreamcast.

Kou Leifoh
04-20-2002, 11:43 AM
:o

Shin Egg Robo X
04-21-2002, 11:12 AM
Well, the latest Famitsu numbers had Game Cube at just 12,000 units, which is equally pathetic I think, given how much cheaper Game Cube is from XBox. I guess neither consoles can carry the momentum to take on the PlayStation 2. PS2 has the brand name which sold them before its launch, then you got the DVD playback abilities, and now there are many great games worth owning on the machine. PS2 has beat out everyone in everything.

Nokman
04-21-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Bill




Actually Microsoft wanted to buy Square, but Square didn't take the bait. I'd guess they wanted to stay independant rather than working exclusively for Microsoft forever, how that Square has gone back to Nintendo and has made numerous comments that they wanted to support the Xbox as well with software.

Enix is another company to look out for, Dragon Quest is, I think, a lot more popular than Final Fantasy.

Software and content is what gamers want, until Microsoft have those that has mass market appeal, they won't likely make a major impact in the Japanese market.

Sorry I wasn't really referring to buying sqaure but just simply investing in them. I don't know much about investing and companies buying out other companies so I don't know if both companies have to be in agreement or what. I think that it would just be beneficial if they said said "Here Square, take $20,000,000" and see what they do with it (Heck take the funds from their huge advertising budget, it isn't doing them much good). Just my uninformed 2 cents.

Your right I think Enix is definatly another place MS should look. When a game like DW7 can sell 4,000,000 copies, out selling any of the PS1 Final Fantasy games, on the PS1 with "inferior graphics" (I hate this term being applied to RPG's) then they have to be a force to be dealt with.

Shin Egg Robo X
04-21-2002, 05:25 PM
Yes but don't you think that Enix would be a little unsure about putting DQ8 on Xbox instead of PS2? DQ8 is a huge franchise and I think with the strength and momentum of PS2, what is going to happen is that a lot of people will run to Xbox but a lot of people will most likely stick to PS2. The result would be something like 1 to 1.5 million copies sold of DQ8. Enix would be laughed at and Enix will have ruined its major money making series. I think the best thing is for Enix to release Dragon Quest V and VI remakes on Xbox if anything. They might sell about 300,000 to 400,000 copies; something Microsoft needs. Plus it'll take a lot less time to make them than a whole new DQ game. Right now, Xbox needs some big releases. The faster they get out, the better the situation will be. Since it was said that DQ8 would be out 2004 at the earliest, that is about 2 years in which Microsoft and the Xbox need to keep on going. That will be way too late for people to just sit with their thumbs up their asses as it seems like Japanese support is too few and far between.

emagius
04-21-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by dvdjedi
Let me get this straight, emagius. You're saying that the Xbox is an "inferior MS product"? And that M$ was arrogant to try and enter the console market?

No, that's not what I said at all. I said Microsoft was overly arrogrant in the way they entered the console market. They didn't try to court developers nearly enough, especially the Japanese ones -- rather, they sat back on their laurels and expected everyone to flock to them, which worked well enough in the past on the PC front where they were the big fish in the pond, but here in the console realm they were newcomers, and they didn't know how to act. Sony made concessions when it launched the PSX and signed up developers quickly -- Microsoft offered little incentive to traditional console game developers -- the tailored everything to the PC point of view.

emagius
04-21-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by littlesushi
"users of the world by and far have lapped up inferior MS products for years"



Dude, what the hell are you talking about inferior. What OS are you running right now? What browser are you surfing with? I bet there all made by microsoft right?

OS: OpenBSD, a derivative of the OS Microsoft uses to host all their critical processes (FreeBSD). Even MS doesn't trust their own OS.

Browser: Right now, Dillo. Though often I use Links or Konqueror.

I don't run MS software unless I'm surrounded by sheep who can't understand how to use real software. I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread however, so I'll stop here.

Seska
04-22-2002, 04:09 AM
As a PC owner and a PS2/DC owner, there is not a whole lot the Xbox has to offer me. So called exclusives - Gotham (I already have MSR ont he DC) Jet set Radio Future (same here), Silent Hill 2 (Got it on PS2 as well) - there jsut isnt much in the curent software launch list thre to atttract me. There is DOA3, of course, and as much as I love bouncing breasts, I am content to play Tekken 4 and VF4 on the PS2 in the meantime. HAlo? Coming sometime on PC. Morrowind? IT looks even better on PC.

A whole lot of the other titles jsut seem like ports, so unless Microsoft snaps up more exclusives or offeres something other than FPS/Sports games, Ill be sticking to what I have.

Then again, I am a hardcore games fan, and to those who dont own any of the mentioned Systems, the Xbox is surely a great offer for price. I wont even go into how expensive it is to keep your PC up to date!

As for Microsoft OS - Yeah, we know they all suck and are unstable, but to be honest, if you compatibility for games, you don't have a lot of choice in that area.

ARTO
04-22-2002, 05:26 AM
Alright Oerjan. Looks like you know what you're talking about.

As for the clear limit on XB that you've mention, can you be more clear? Do you mean it's technical specs or it's marketing stradigy and it's softwares support? If it's the Specs, can you give us the low down?

Thanks.

Bishamon
04-22-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Seska
As a PC owner and a PS2/DC owner, there is not a whole lot the Xbox has to offer me. So called exclusives - Gotham (I already have MSR ont he DC) Jet set Radio Future (same here), Silent Hill 2 (Got it on PS2 as well) - there jsut isnt much in the curent software launch list thre to atttract me. There is DOA3, of course, and as much as I love bouncing breasts, I am content to play Tekken 4 and VF4 on the PS2 in the meantime. HAlo? Coming sometime on PC. Morrowind? IT looks even better on PC.

A whole lot of the other titles jsut seem like ports, so unless Microsoft snaps up more exclusives or offeres something other than FPS/Sports games, Ill be sticking to what I have.

Then again, I am a hardcore games fan, and to those who dont own any of the mentioned Systems, the Xbox is surely a great offer for price. I wont even go into how expensive it is to keep your PC up to date!



I have to disagree; currently, if using DirectX, PC games cannot do what is already being done in games like Halo; some of the effects are just not included yet. They are slated for DirectX 9.0. Also, it looks like Halo won't be coming for PC. It hasn't officially been cancelled, but they added so many features that the XBox version looks way better than the PC version did before they stopped working on it; it was just about finished, too.

Also, I believe it is the hardcare gamers that are buying XBox, the same way they bought the Saturn and Dreamcast. I already owned a PS2 when I got my XBox, and I then bought a GameCube (which I have since sold). I also have three Dreamcasts (1 import bought at Japanese launch, 1 domestic bought at North American launcg, and another I bought that is modded to play both N.A. and Japanese games), two Saturns (one import bought at launch for Cdn$999.00, one domestic with switch), a Neo*Geo CD, N64, Genesis, SNES, Nuon, and I used to have an original 3DO and Atari Jaguar that I sold along with my original Neo*Geo cartridge system to help finance my first Saturn. Man, do I ever regret selling that Neo*Geo; the Neo*Geo CD just can't replace it! I actually have a Neo*Geo 1-slot MVS JAMMA (arcade) board and a dozen games that I plan to hook up to a supergun when I get a chance to buy one; I keep spending money on other things. ;)

MATTinChAyNz
04-22-2002, 12:59 PM
It's pretty sad when a dead system can outsell a very powerful, recently introduced console.

The PS2 has a handle on this market (currently) and the only threat is the Gamecube, which if it overtakes the top position, won't be for at least another year.

The next holiday season will bode well for Nintendo, seeing as how they have 3 major franchise games coming out all a month inbetween each other (in Japan, anyway). Even Sony has a "halo killer" in the works. Possibly Red Faction 2?

I'm smiling because as soon as the x-box completely flops, all those sweet titles from Sega and whoever else will make their way on to PS2 and GC.

Those 3rd parties are questioning their ability to sell a million units on a system that hasn't sold a million combined in europe and asia, and even the 'hardcore' gamers in the US aren't even buying the niche titles like JSRF.

How do you spell the success of the x-box? oh yeah...D-O-O-M.

If this system is so powerful in every department, why is it not dominating this 20 billion dollar industry? Simple: because it's not for true gamers. It's for people who love eye candy. Sure, I've played it enough to know it's not for me, despite a handful of games (that i could count using one hand) are great, but they're not selling as well as they could be on other systems.

This is not a personal attack on every x-box owner, or on the system because I like Sony and Nintendo. I'm just unimpressed by M$'s weak attempt at a game console. It's got no fuel to keep the fire burning. No oriniality. It's got all the goodies of a computer, but none of the great titles.

So before you go off and attack my personal views as a gamer, check yourself, and realize your opinion are just as valid as mine in our own little worlds.:D

Bishamon
04-22-2002, 01:15 PM
Well, the XBox is outselling the GameCube in North America. In Japan, I seriously doubt it will ever even threaten the GameCube, which is having as tough time itself against the Sony juggernaut.

I have a feeling that the market will pretty much remain as it is, with the PS2 dominating in both markets, the XBox a distant second in North America and the GameCube in third, in Japan the GameCube will fill the second-console niche, and the XBox will be for a very few die-hard gamers. Unless Microsoft can grab up some amazing Japanese exclusives (besides what it has from Sega) it will never get very far in Japan.

MATTinChAyNz
04-22-2002, 03:31 PM
Yeah, it may be about the games, but you saw that Q&A with Japanese gamers.

Even the 'Microsoft' name turns them off.

Image can count for something in this industry, just like any other.

The Japanese market, as far as I can tell, is a tough one to cater to and please.

M$ has their work cut out for them. They will stay afloat for a while, but if this trend of declining sales keeps up, despite price cuts, it will be drowning sooner than later.

Bishamon
04-22-2002, 03:34 PM
I read somewhere that when Microsoft was showing off the XBox to the Japanese industry insiders and press, they loaded up Halo at one point, which brought some snickers from the crowd. The Japanese just enjoy a different style of games.

Maybe if MS brought out a dating simulation... :D

pfk
04-22-2002, 04:02 PM
and now the rats are leaving the ship...

http://www.eurogamer.net/news.php?id=20824

MATTinChAyNz
04-22-2002, 04:29 PM
Yeah, they're not exactly into the kinds of games we are.

I mean look at those games like "Mad Maestro" and "Mr. Mosquito.

Completely different. However, they do like the survival horror genre, which is why I'm a bit perplexed as to why the Biohazard remake is not doing particularly well? Especially since Famituse gave it an almost perfect score.

The game is practically brand new, afterall, but I believe they are wanting something totally new in the series, which is not terribly far away (biohazard 0).

Their economy is not up to par right now as well, so nothing is selling particularly stellar over there. Could be worse though.

Aside from that comment about Halo, I've even seen pictures of the Japanese laughing at the x-box. They're pretty unforgiving!:D

Onmitsu
04-22-2002, 04:36 PM
Hey guys, i agree with DVDjedi. I think Microsoft didn't plan out the Japanese launch properly like they claimed they did. I am an xbox owner and i believe that the xbox may not win the console war but i do believe that there will be some great games for it. Sony have stated that they see Microsoft as a threat and are bringing the development of PS3 closer. You may not believe it but it is true. Microsoft are keeping Americans happy with football games and such, but they are not really providing the japanese with games that THEY want. This is a serious problem for Microsoft Japan but not for me.


Onmitsu has spoken

MATTinChAyNz
04-22-2002, 04:43 PM
It's not the football games that are keeping us happy.

You must have some kind of warped view of american gamers.

I don't own a single normal sports game (i have a few Xtreme sports games, like ssx tricky) because I'm not interested in sports as much as others may be.

I'm into the games that I'm into..it's as simple as that. There is no stereotype that can fit any one gamer out there. There are many different preferences out there for many different gamers.

Yes...there are video game ethics :cool:

dvdjedi
04-22-2002, 08:46 PM
The N64 is proof that a game console can thrive without major Japanese support (it really had very little outside of Nintendo itself).

Shin Egg Robo X
04-22-2002, 10:49 PM
Xbox's main audience I noticed seems to be people that basically are from ages 16-24. Xbox is delivering what those people want: games with great graphics (so far, Xbox spanks PS2 and GC graphics wise, especially with games like Rallisport), some cool sports games, and the fun multiplayer FPS. Microsoft has this image and that is why Xbox is selling 20,000 to 30,000 units a week instead of 2,000 units in Japan. Microsoft cares about the Japanese market only as much as to make a few dollars. Xbox has a pretty good image in America. The thing is that Xbox lacks GTA3 and thats the hot ticket game right there. Xbox has Max Payne and for a long time the Xbox version ranked higher than the PS2 version. In February, there were easily 7-8 Xbox games on the NPD TRST Top 25. Then Microsoft basically cut off all the marketing and now it seems like the only game on the charts is Halo. I hope next month with WSB 2K3 and Morrowind that Microsoft tries to push both of those games.

grahf
04-23-2002, 02:29 AM
Shin, you're obviously the demographic that Xbox is leaning toward: ignorant, uninform, adolescent who'd buy anything that looks shiny. Honestly though, if you think GT3 is the only good PS2 title, then you've clearly been brainwashed by Xbox's hype and are well beyond misinformed, my narrowminded friend.

Onmitsu
04-23-2002, 02:38 AM
HEy, sorry for the stereotype but i thought the mainstream games in America wud be football games. First of all GRAHF, Shin is merely highlighting the xbox's power but he immediately talks about the issue here...i own both PS2 and a (IMPORT) xbox. I predicted that micro would treat UK bad so i was one step ahead. Grapf it us you who is the ignorant one as you believe that only Sony is the key to your life....THERE will be great games on all three consoles....And GTA3 is coming to xbox....check out gamespot,ign,games radar.

oerjaN
04-23-2002, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by ARTO
Alright Oerjan. Looks like you know what you're talking about.

As for the clear limit on XB that you've mention, can you be more clear? Do you mean it's technical specs or it's marketing stradigy and it's softwares support? If it's the Specs, can you give us the low down?

Thanks.

Technical stuff are the limitations. You're stuck with an ancient x86
CPU, allthough pretty fast. you're stuck with custom win2k/dx8. nothing more.... the gforce chip is there, but it's for graphics.

a pretty straightforward design, easy to learn.. but then, after
the first generation of games it's pretty maxed out, just like the DC
was.

multiple processors (like in ps2, n64, sega saturn) makes for a steeper
learning curve, but once mastered the potential is so much bigger.

don't even get me started about win2k and dx8....

Originally posted by dvdjedi
The N64 is proof that a game console can thrive without major Japanese support (it really had very little outside of Nintendo itself).

Nintendo supported it, Nintendo themself are good support,
Nintendo almost have the same magic as SEGA in makin games.
Along with Rare in UK n64 had all support it needed. the n64 was
more about quality than quantity, which might be bad saleswise.
(and the pretty complicated design of it made almost all others
fail in delivering anything good, that is not N's fault it's more the
crappy devvers fault)

-

now to my conclusion, a steeper learning curve is usually the
most satisfying one once mastered.

to make an easy to grip example: the tony hawk games are pretty
hard at first, but once you get good at them they rock! the feeling
of scoring your first 20mill combo is mighty fine, while completing
shenmue is like... uuh finally done, it was an easy game and all that
but i don't feel satisfied.. i didn't have to prove anything (for myself),
anyone with the patience can play through it without any difficulties.

i am being a bit diffuse here... but i want to keep it short.

peace!

Bishamon
04-23-2002, 09:00 AM
Actuall, OerjaN, there are quite a few major differences between the XBox and a PC, and when it comes to hardware, the GameCube and PS2 both have serious limitations when it comes to graphics capability. Here is an excerpt from a Tom's Hardware article (Tom's is a very well respected mostly PC-related hardware site):

******

In order to manage the data,
Microsoft has opted for a 733 MHz Pentium III processor. Some will say that
that is a bit light, considering that PC technology has reached a Pentium 4
with 2.2 GHz and that the life cycle of a console is between three to five
years. But one should not look at this problem in these terms. In a PC,
because of the open architecture of the system, and because it goes through
an interface and millions of restraints, the power of the CPU is basic. With
the console, everything depends on what it is supposed to do. In this case,
it is relieved of the main graphics work, which it assumes on the PC. If an
Xbox game (which requires T&L or shaders) is well-programmed, then it
practically doesn't even need the Pentium III. On a PC, it is not the case
because of descending compatibility. On the Xbox, the CPU processes and
sends the entered information - it is the connection between individual
elements, such as the hard disk, and it manages the artificial
intelligence."

Further "it is clear that the Xbox has reached a new
milestone for console graphics. But the Xbox will also be able to defend
itself against the PC for a long time because the architecture is stable
enough without having to evolve upwards or worry about
downward-compatibility."

******

In addition, there was this insterview with a developer on the topic of a PC possibly emulating an XBox:

******

"That's impossible to emulate in software, because games on X-Box can be
designed to load stuff once in to memory and use it directly without
uploading it to the graphics card. The whole memory management code for a
well-written native X-Box game is therefore completely different from a PC
game.

"It would be analogous to running your entire application out of VRAM. In
fact, running the whole thing out of VRAM might work as a substitute on the
PC, but the bus bandwidth would be greatly reduced - AGP 4X probably
wouldn't cut it."

Despite claims that it's Windows-compatible, X-Box runs its own OS. Although
the API bears a strong resemblance to the Win32 API, there are new functions
in X-Box that simply don't exist in Windows, and vice-versa; plus many API
functions that have the same name ignore certain parameters (this is
especially true of the WinSock implementation).

More critically, we learn that X-Box code runs at ring 0 - right next to the
silicon where normally only operating systems dare to tread. This allows
X-Box developers to code 'to the metal' when necessary, like the PS2.

"You could never do this on Windows," he adds. "And X-Box games also depend
on the video chip being an X-Box video chip. It is NOT a GeForce 3. It is
similar, but different in many subtle ways. Microsoft has exposed more of
the nVidia shader architecture in the X-Box implementation of DirectX. The
X-Box video chip also has more shader capability than the GeForce 3 does.

"So, even if, for the sake of argument, you could somehow run an X-Box game
on a PC, it wouldn't work - it would fail, because these differences are too
great to overcome. While it's not impossible to think that some developer
might want to 'lower the bar' and come up with an abstraction layer to allow
their app to be portable to both platforms, in the real world, where all the
software developers compete for the coolest titles, we're going to be taking
full advantage of the X-Box capabilities, because if we didn't our titles
would suck compared to the competition.

"From our point of view, the X-Box platform allows us to set GeForce
architecture, with pixel and vertex shaders, as the minimum (and maximum)
platform requirement, without worrying about compatibility.

"As a result, X-Box games are going to raise the bar of technology much
higher than equivalent PC games for some time to come."

******

There was also an article on Sharkey Extreme that compared the three consoles and explored their limitations: The GameCube had something to do with graphics memory bandwith within the ATI chipset, I believe, and PS2's is (obviously) processing power and texture memory (which is why so many DC versions of games look better than the PS2 versions, such as THPS2, Test Drive Le Mans, Dead or Alive 2, etc.). I'll see if I can find that article.

Seska
04-23-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Shin Egg Robo X
Microsoft has this image and that is why Xbox is selling 20,000 to 30,000 units a week instead of 2,000 units in Japan. Microsoft cares about the Japanese market only as much as to make a few dollars. Xbox has a pretty good image in America.

Well, yes, Microsoft has a good image in the US, but I think you will find it DOES care to make the Xbox a success in Europe and PARTICULARLY in Japan. Take in mind that the biggest sales of games and hardware takes place in Japan. There, bestellers are counted by the MILLIONS (Pokemon on the GBC sold alone over 10 million copies), unlike in the west where we are happy if the sales go up to 200k.

Heck, even US sales are flaking lately.

In fact, despite its fair success in the US, Microsoft is having a hard time making up for the poor sales in Europe and Japan with the US revenues. Why do you think M$ is cutting back the sales price of the Xbox in PAL regions? They are desperate to get their product into as many homes as possible and make a benefit from game sales, even if they will be losing money on hardware sales.

Seska
04-23-2002, 11:42 AM
Intresting interview, Bishamon.

Despite all that, it still makes you wonder why Morrowind clearly looks better on a PC than on the Xbox though, doesn't it? :)

I guess we will have to wait for future titles to when the X-Box's potential is better used!

pfk
04-23-2002, 11:51 AM
tom's hardware... wich bring us to who's the demographic for xbox?

i've read everything tom's hardware did on xbox, ps2 and gamecube and i have to say i beleive them to be biased on the PC side. they've shit on the ps2 and GC but (almost) praised the xbox nitpicking on the HDD milisecond loadtimes. They've made it their job to extensively overkill the lack of ram of the systems enven going that the xbox would be better with more??? for me it's obvious these guys only likes PC and then the xbox cuz it's the closest to a PC...

these guys only talk hardware and no games, no games at all. You're telling me that sony's and nintendo's hardware are shit?? wrll excuse me but i trust these company with a lot of experience to create good hardware, console hardware that is. and yes the xbox is a PC in a console clothing, it's not a bad thing it's just a fact and that's why the PC community loves the xbox.

pesonnally (you've read right, personnally) everyone i know who own a xbox is either a non-gamer or a PC guy that does'nt own any other console. Every gamer i know plays ps2, DC or GC (in that order). it's beyond me why they'd chose a more expensive with very less good games but then again they don't play with it!! i play with it when i'm at their place he he. i have a coworker that only swears by his xbox but havent played 10h on it since he bought it... on day 1???

M$ chose a demographic and it worked, the only problem is that it's a small one and it only live in america

Bishamon
04-23-2002, 12:12 PM
Yes, I chose reviews from PC sites so that nobody could claim they were biased towards any one console. It figures that someone would try to claim that they are biased towards XBox, despite the fact that the very same article explains why the XBox is very different from a PC. Oh, well.

Bishamon
04-23-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Seska
Intresting interview, Bishamon.

Despite all that, it still makes you wonder why Morrowind clearly looks better on a PC than on the Xbox though, doesn't it? :)


If Morrowind looks better on PC, it mustn't be using any of the XBox features that can't be done on PC yet, and it would be the first game available or in development for both systems to look better on PC. Everything else looks better or has more graphical features on XBox.

Bishamon
04-23-2002, 12:53 PM
Actually, Pete Hines (of Bethesda Softworks - the Morrowind developers) seems to think the XBox version will have the graphical edge over all but a high-end PC (which should be on-par with the XBox version), and the tester at RPGDot discovered that on an AMD Athlon 1300 with 512MB RAM and a GeForce 3 Ti200, the graphics features couldn't all be turned on.

****
XG: There is a PC version also coming out, what will be different graphics-wise, sound-wise and games-wise comparing the xbox to a high-end PC?

PH: The benefit of the Xbox is that you get a system that gets all the graphical goodies out of Morrowind. As always, the plight of PC gamers is the constant push to keep up with the technological curve. There's always a new graphics card out that does more stuff than the one you have. For PC players, the better the card, the more features they can experience. For Xbox players, you don't have to worry about that. We aren't changing any of the content in terms of the quests, storyline, etc. The controls and interface for the Xbox will be completely different. We're pretty happy with the way that's turning out. It really plays like a console game. The default perspective for Morrowind Xbox will be 3rd person, but you can switch to first person if you like. For PC, default is 1st person and you can switch to 3rd. Those are the major differences.
****

I guess we'll have to wait and see the finished products to compare the two versions, but so far the XBox versions of games have been graphically superior to their PC counterparts, partly due to the fact that some of the frequently used XBox graphical effects aren't yet implemented in DirectX.

Shin Egg Robo X
04-23-2002, 11:12 PM
I think the slower sales are a result of three things: a lack of must own titles for Xbox this month, the fact that the market always slows down during this time (PS2 hardware sales have been dropping too so don't think that PS2 is invincible to the slow sales), and how Microsoft oddly hasn't pushed anything since JSRF in late February/early March. Its getting towards the end here in April and oddly, nothing from Microsoft. Not even an ad over an older game. I would have thought Microsoft would have pushed Rallisport and Gun Valkyrie, two games that had mass appeal but since Microsoft didn't advertise them, Rallisport had a brief encounter on the charts and GV did not even register.

oerjaN
04-24-2002, 05:02 AM
Bishamon i want to comment on many things in your post, but
the obvious thing i must comment on is about the x86, and the stuff
you couldn't find.

xbox's processing performance is the lowest of the 3 consoles,
there is actually no doubt about it.
with PSX and Saturn physics (and AI) where coded with Integers,
nowadays everything is done wih floating points on consoles.
the 733MHz PIII (with 128k L1 cahce (as in celeron)) can do roughly
about 1GFlop, thou it's been stated that xb can do abround 3.2GFlops
which might be true, maybe with the GPU (which have nothing to
do with physics and AI, still it takes load of the CPU so we can
have it as a factor anyway).
PS2 (EE + both VU's) does around 6.2GFlops, whereof in MGS2 as
example roughly 60% are used for AI.
GC is capable of a little bit above 10GFlops.

sure, you could say that floating point processing isn't important,
but it is, imagine GT3 with Integer based physics....

as far as PS2 texture memory goes... think about it, there is a
memory bandwith at 48GB/s, not really necessary to use slower
RAM for textures then. (i really don't know about the GC mem bw problems
you mentioned so i won't comment on that)

i didn't say that xb used a GeForce 3 chip, and i didn't say anything
about the win2k/dx8 versions, obviously they are custom as you
mentioned. i didn't even compare xb to a pc, basically it uses the
same technology, but in another way. (btw, having the HDD and DVD
to share the same IDE cable is very clever, lol)

Bishamon
04-24-2002, 09:17 AM
Sorry, OerjaN, when you mentioned Win2K and DirectX8 in regards to the XBox (neither of which are used), I thought you were comaring it to the PC.

Yes, the XBox CPU may have poorer floating point performance, but since the majority of graphics calculations and effects are being handled by the far superior GPU, the processing power becomes a non-issue. This was discussed on Tom's Hardware (from my post):

"In a PC,
because of the open architecture of the system, and because it goes through
an interface and millions of restraints, the power of the CPU is basic. With
the console, everything depends on what it is supposed to do. In this case,
it is relieved of the main graphics work, which it assumes on the PC. If an
Xbox game (which requires T&L or shaders) is well-programmed, then it
practically doesn't even need the Pentium III."

oerjaN
04-24-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Bishamon
Yes, the XBox CPU may have poorer floating point performance, but since the majority of graphics calculations and effects are being handled by the far superior GPU, the processing power becomes a non-issue.

actually, since the GPU + CPU makes about 3.2GFlops TOGETHER
it's an issue.
but on the other hand, since XB is almost 3 years newer than PS2
and nVidia in fact are the best american GPU manufaturer the GPU
has some sweet HW T&L, Bump-Mapping and Vertex shaders.
that argument is a fact and i will never deny that.

Bishamon
04-24-2002, 09:50 AM
Actually, NVidia claims the XBox CPU + GPU can handle 140 GFlops (somewhat more tha the 6.2 GFlops the PS2 can handle). The CPU alone can only handle 3.2 GFLops.

ringlord
04-24-2002, 01:45 PM
All of this talk about GFlops is completely useless. Who cares which machine has the most GFlops? Do GFlops make better games? No.

If you want to talk about a system's power, then compare the games across the systems. Look at the recently released Spider-man game for all three consoles. Look at Tony Hawk 3. Read the reviews on sites which review all three versions. What console do they say has the most impressive version? That's the console which gives developers the most power TODAY.

Bishamon
04-24-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by ringlord
All of this talk about GFlops is completely useless. Who cares which machine has the most GFlops? Do GFlops make better games? No.

If you want to talk about a system's power, then compare the games across the systems. Look at the recently released Spider-man game for all three consoles. Look at Tony Hawk 3. Read the reviews on sites which review all three versions. What console do they say has the most impressive version? That's the console which gives developers the most power TODAY.

HEAR, HEAR! :)

oerjaN
04-24-2002, 03:01 PM
ofcourse floating points can make games better.

and 140GFlops, where the hell did you get that from?

and ringlord if you ask me none of those 3 consoles have the
best games today. the best games i can play are out on Dreamcast.

and i just like to talk about tech stuff, i think it's interesting.
games are still what matters.

Bishamon
04-24-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by oerjaN
ofcourse floating points can make games better.

and 140GFlops, where the hell did you get that from?

It's right from NVidia's press release where they claim 20x the power of the PS2. ;)

Here is a link to the presentation:

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/private_eye/8/slide.jpg

and ringlord if you ask me none of those 3 consoles have the
best games today. the best games i can play are out on Dreamcast.

and i just like to talk about tech stuff, i think it's interesting.
games are still what matters.

Woohoo! I agree wholeheartedly! The Dreamcast is the best system (games-wise) to come out in years! :)

typexig
04-26-2002, 01:33 AM
here we go again...yeah yeah yeah, xbox was the best graphics..you guys think that this is going to help them sell more hardware? dont think so..=)

-Xig-

Seska
04-26-2002, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Bishamon


If Morrowind looks better on PC, it mustn't be using any of the XBox features that can't be done on PC yet, and it would be the first game available or in development for both systems to look better on PC. Everything else looks better or has more graphical features on XBox.

Of course, when I said that Morrowind Looks beter on PC, I meant on a high-end PC with all the details at maximum. This is particularly noticable in the water effects on both games, where the PC version certainly does look better.

I am sure that on my machine's specs with the lowest settings, Morrowind will look like its running on a PSX! ;)

Alucard
04-26-2002, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by typexig
here we go again...yeah yeah yeah, xbox was the best graphics..you guys think that this is going to help them sell more hardware? dont think so..=)

-Xig-

We live in a strange world these days. The Dreamcast had the better games for a very long time over the PS2. Yet the majority of gamers today decided to go to the PS2 and gave alot of flak at DC owners saying PS2 had better graphics and there was no point to have a DC.

It was everywhere. On bboards, in game stores. Any place that brought up the two consoles. Now days with GC and XBox out, alot of these people <this isn't directed at you btw dude, just going over my memory>, are saying graphics dont matter now. It's all about the games. Everytime I hear a Sony fanboy say something like this it makes me want to kick them hard for bashing the Deramcast. But thats how it is. Better games, better graphics, lord knows what most people who own a PS2 before want.

I still have more games on my DC them my PS2 and GC combined. Though my PC 0wned all three of them combined.


I'll be happily playing Morrowind on my PC which I keep up to date whenever I can. Thats one thing about both versions. PEople who own or want an XBox, well alot of them not every single one in the world, basically never upgrade 486 voodoo2 system. So it's easier for them. I can afford to upgrade my system since I dont buy 10 PS2 or other consolegames, a month. And that intro to the article above was annoying. 'There is also a PC version'.. Bah. Morrowind was in production for the PC LONG before XBox was released. And if you ask me, the constant delays in the PC version was because they wanted a simultanious XBox release, which is what they hoped to do. I guess something changed to finally get the PC game out NOW and to delay the XBox version a little onger. Was starting to get under my skin with all these delays.

typexig
04-26-2002, 12:51 PM
hmmm..well. i think people bought PS2 cuz of its brand "Playstation". people loved the PSone. and during its year it was the best. and when people heard of PS2 they have to buy it cuz they know that all the great games for PSone will go to PS2(like Final Fantasy series, Metal Gear series, Xenogear, Gran Turismo series and more)..but i also i agree with you that some people bought PS2 over DC is cuz of the Graphics..so yeah, sorry bout my previous post. i shouldve think bout that before i typed it. but then again, the thing called Xbox is been out for almost what? 6-7months? and still, its not selling really well with its superior graphics over GC and PS2..so i guess it all comes up with games...=)

typexig
04-26-2002, 01:06 PM
you know whats weird though. when PS2 came out, many people bought it with its weak first wave of games. why. why why?... and when the thing called Xbox came out for the first time many people didnt buy the thing called Xbox with its first wave of games. why.and why? i think Xbox had a better launch games than PS2. still the PS2 outsold the thing called Xbox on its launch..weird..so i think PS2 is selling better mostly cuz of its brand "Playstation" and the support they have with many many game developers..i dont know if that came out right..hehe..=)

-Xig-

ringlord
04-26-2002, 01:35 PM
Exactly. Too many people buy consoles and games based on brand names. The PS2 killed the DC because of its brand and undeserved hype.

If brands and hype are what sell consoles and games, then the console gaming market is in for some low times.

Sony would have milked the PSOne for another year if it wasn't for the DC. Sony wouldn't be pushing online gaming and a hard drive if it wasn't for the Xbox.

If you're hoping for the death of the Xbox or the GC or any console, then you're hoping for the death of the industry.

Black Sugar
04-26-2002, 01:54 PM
OoooOooh. If this wasn't for Nintendo stupid mistake, PSone wouldn't be here.
If it wasn't for nintendo catridge base console PSone wouldn't be here
If it wasn't for the low sale of the Saturn in US...well, Psone wouldn't be here either.

What i'm trying to say is, Sony is lucky, they been on right moment at the right place.

They never had a good ratio of A+ quality games (1:20) and the only reason why the PS2 sold so much is because of this stupid hype and his brand name alone.

Of the top of that, The Dreamcast (who got one of the most incredible library of A+ titles) didn't make it .

God, pleeeeze help us all!!! -.-'

As for X-box... this is a Panasonic 3D0 with more money to back it up.

Bad controller design, bad console design, bad 3rd party games....Deja vu!

ringlord
04-26-2002, 04:11 PM
I don't know if you were trying to be sarcastic or not, but I agree: Nintendo's mistakes gave Sony the opening to rule the console market. As much as I hate it, it's a good thing because that's competition.

Nintendo stayed with their old cartridge ways instead of moving to a superior format (CD), so they paid the price when Sony's PSOne used the format to deliver killer games (FF VII) that people wanted to buy. Yes, sony was lucky, but they took advantage of it. Those on top (Nintendo & Sega) got lazy. If sony never entered the market, where would console gaming be at today?

The Dreamcast was an excellent system. That's my point. It was killed by PS2 hype. I'm still not convinced that the PS2 is superior to the DC, especially at the current price.

Sorry you don't seem to like the Xbox. I think it's a fine system myself: good design and good games. But that's why having choices is a good thing. You choose the console you like, and I'll choose the one I like, and we're both happy.

Would you prefer for the PS2 to be the only console? Or the GC to be the only console? Since you dislike the Xbox so much, imagine a world where the Xbox is the only console! Not a pretty picture, eh?

That's my only point: I'd rather have three strong consoles splitting the market than one console dominating the market.

pfk
04-26-2002, 04:48 PM
if it was'nt for nintendo sony would'nt be here

you can't be more right since sony developed the ps1 just so they didn't waste all the developement money nintendo had them invest on a cd system!! (console history 101)

Mama sony never beleived they would dominate the industry in so few years.

sometimes it's good timing and the mistake of others that bring you to the top...

Black Sugar
04-26-2002, 04:49 PM
I wasn't sarcastic at all my man -.- !

I only want to show to some pepole that Sony isn't all that, and all this. X-box would had the same kind of succes if he had this kind of break.

X-box, well, I don't hate the console that much, I only don't understand how come a guy like Bill Gates doesn't understand what so obvious for us.

Without a market share in japan and without good 3rd party games you can't go nowhere no matter how powerful the console is. Well... i guess we all knew that but no one bother to tell him this ^.^!

As for the one world , one console thing.. I don't want that...lol ! More console on the market,mean more games, better competion, better for the industry and more choice for us ^-^`

teepo
04-28-2002, 05:41 PM
the problem i found with the dreamcast, alot of good games, not many great games. that's why it failed.

most people i know irl just ended up playing the sports and fighting games on the dc.

Bishamon
04-29-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by teepo
the problem i found with the dreamcast, alot of good games, not many great games. that's why it failed.


I disagree. The Dreamcast had a TON of great games, I would definately say it had (has) more great games than the PS2. It failed because the PS2 rode in on the success of the PS1 whereas the Saturn (at least in North America) left a bad taste in the mouths of most of the 'average' gamers.

ringlord
04-29-2002, 03:58 PM
Exactly. What a shame, too. At least now Sega can let loose and become one of the top (THE top?) software maker/publisher across all the consoles.

Bishamon
04-29-2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by ringlord
Exactly. What a shame, too. At least now Sega can let loose and become one of the top (THE top?) software maker/publisher across all the consoles.

Yeah, their hardware business was really holding them back; it was severely limiting the potential audience for their excellent games.

Sardaukar
05-02-2002, 04:23 AM
For some reason I knew that I'd would find a lot of ingnorant dumbasses in these particular boards,and gollygeewheez I haven't been disappointed.The same japanese clay idol-worshipping of always.

Black Sugar
05-02-2002, 08:17 AM
Then go to another Board bro!!

Bishamon
05-02-2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Sardaukar
For some reason I knew that I'd would find a lot of ingnorant dumbasses in these particular boards,and gollygeewheez I haven't been disappointed.The same japanese clay idol-worshipping of always.

I'm suprised that someone who reads Frank Herbert would be capable of such an unintelligent post. *sigh*

So, if you hate Japanese consoles, I assume your colection consists of an Atari 2600, a Commodore 64, an Amiga or two, a 3D0, a Jaguar, and an XBox? ;)

junker
05-02-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Sardaukar
For some reason I knew that I'd would find a lot of ingnorant dumbasses in these particular boards,and gollygeewheez I haven't been disappointed.The same japanese clay idol-worshipping of always.

Heh, there's nothing like reading the inane antics of a babbling idiot whose probably brooding in his shack somewhere in the boonies and blaming everyone for his problems to start a day. Yeah man, everybody is your enemy. You just go ahead and keep on believing that while we'll be here playing with our Japanese made consoles and ignoring you like all the other trolls.

baratus
10-21-2002, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Sardaukar
For some reason I knew that I'd would find a lot of ingnorant dumbasses in these particular boards,and gollygeewheez I haven't been disappointed.The same japanese clay idol-worshipping of always.

Spoken like a true Xbox fanboy who obviously doesn't know that the best videogame ideas come mostly from Japan. Shoo Shoo, go to another board please. :crazy:

baratus
10-21-2002, 11:15 PM
Don't bombard me on what I'm about to say, but if you ask me, I think too many people here praise Sega too much. The company isn't that good in my opinion, the only Dreamcast game I was ever interested in was RE Code Veronica and it wasn't even made by Sega, not even Shenmue looked that great too me. Sonic Adventure looked rather boring, dunno about the Dreamcast version but Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the GameCube is definetely the crappiest vomit-inducing game I've played in years. Maybe this is because Sega never appealed to me during the Genesis (and the whole hell of systems they made) back then, but I've never considered them as a good developer, though Shinobi on the PS2 looks cool.

gabriel
10-22-2002, 07:29 AM
...not even Shenmue looked that great too me. Sonic Adventure looked rather boring...

I think the first step here would be to actually play the games ;) Admittedly Sonic Adventure isnt great. It's fun, but it's not really well made, kind of sloppy. Kind of like watching a movie like Mortal Kombat, where it's fun and entertaining, but it's not exactly a good movie. I thought Shenmue was amazing, best DC game out there, but it doesnt have mass market appeal, and I can see why some people would dislike it.

Sega makes fun games, but I wouldnt say they're a top developer, either.

Monkey-King
10-22-2002, 07:38 PM
Microsoft knew this could happen, but they hoped it wouldn't...such is life.

But, what seems so weird to me is people think that the low sales will mean something will happen soon. It's almost as if they "think" MS will just pack up and go away if they are still selling bad in a year. I don't care if you live in Tokyo and see the thing molding on the shelf, believe me Xbox will be there in five years. For MS this is not an industry they intend to let out of their grasp.

If nothing else is apparent from all the interviews that MS and the Xbox divisions has give, it's the concept that they are willing to lose a few billion just to keep their foot in the door. And, they are willing to spend all that money to cultivate relationships and grow a fan base any way they can.

With that said do I think they will do it in the next few years? No, maybe they will make some workable headway in N. America and Europe, but Asia will simply take much longer. Honestly, in the end MS will probably keep buying percentages of companies on the edge that need to be bailed out in Japan until some mystical combination or hype, games, and image just make they system sell better. Of course they will still remain in 3rd place in Japan, but if they can eek out just a bit of a stable fan base in Japan they win.

crazytaxinext
10-24-2002, 12:02 PM
At the current rate I wouldn't be surprised if Xbox fell heavily back into 3rd place in Europe next year either. To date MS's behaviour concerning Europe has been shoddy at best. Taking Launch day out of the equation they have delayed nearly every title. The only ones that have stuck have been due to Sega or one or two other 3rd parties and even they are in threat yet of fallen. Ms to Europe has been so far what Nintendo used to be like with the N64. They need to sort themselves out as they aren't in a position to take Xmas lightly.

Kid0_oIcarus
10-24-2002, 02:09 PM
haha! This thread is great... and old!

baratus, why do you go around waking the dead?

Black Sugar
10-25-2002, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by baratus
Don't bombard me on what I'm about to say, but if you ask me, I think too many people here praise Sega too much. The company isn't that good in my opinion, the only Dreamcast game I was ever interested in was RE Code Veronica and it wasn't even made by Sega, not even Shenmue looked that great too me. Sonic Adventure looked rather boring, dunno about the Dreamcast version but Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the GameCube is definetely the crappiest vomit-inducing game I've played in years. Maybe this is because Sega never appealed to me during the Genesis (and the whole hell of systems they made) back then, but I've never considered them as a good developer, though Shinobi on the PS2 looks cool.

I must agree, lately Sega didn't do that great when it come to quality games. Put aside olders games and those created by Naka-san [original Sonic the Hedgehog, Nights, PSO] Sega are most known for innovative games and great racing games than quality games such those found at Nintendo. And since the DC death, games such as Shinobi, Gungrave, Sonic Adventure aren`t Sega quality standard. I only hope they also notice that .

Kid0_oIcarus
10-25-2002, 09:50 AM
I have to agree here with you two.. Sega has made good innovations.. but always somehow marred the title.. wether it be a little thing.. or a major oversight.. there's always something nagging at the edges of almost every Sega title- especially their recent releases.

Shinobi has only been receiving average reviews.. how can you mess up a ninja game!? How is that done!? JSRF.. should've been better. Toe Jam & Earl... same thing.. early reports suggest something is missing... PDO.. well.. I dunno anything yet.. but hopefully it'll turn out freaking awesome.. though I don't have an Xbox.. /shakes fist at Billy Gates

baratus
10-26-2002, 11:22 PM
I take back what I said about Shinobi looking cool. I saw a preview at Extended Play and I didn't like it one bit, except the cutscenes but that doesn't make the game any better anyway. Well this is it, Sega definetely stinks, they should stick working exclusively for the Xbox.

xsarien
10-27-2002, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by baratus
I take back what I said about Shinobi looking cool. I saw a preview at Extended Play and I didn't like it one bit, except the cutscenes but that doesn't make the game any better anyway.


Ease off on the clutch there, dude. Shinobi isn't exactly pushing the PS2 to new heights of graphics, but how a game *looks* is pretty unimportant when you give it some thought.

A game could use every inch of memory, and squeeze every possible polygon out of the graphics sub-system, but that's not gonna save it when the reviews ask for better gameplay, longer playing time, or a more involved story. I go by approximately 1.5 rules:

1) If the first thing I point out to someone else is how purty it looks, then the developer's failed to get me interested in the part of the game that matters; 1a) The prettier the graphics, the more the game has to prove.

To steal a quote from Cobi 40-50's .sig:

"Well, I don't think polygons are everything. Using more doesn't necessarily make a better game. I mean, the fun doesn't increase proportionally with the number of polygons! I'm chasing the next generation of interactive entertainment." - Tetsuya Mizuguchi, uga


Well this is it, Sega definetely stinks, they should stick working exclusively for the Xbox.

And this doesn't even make much sense. :) Most of Sega's XBox exclusive titles haven't been going that far in terms of graphics with the exceptions of PDO and GT2k2. Toejam and Earl, like Shenmue II was originally a Dreamcast title, and Jet Set Radio Future is, well, JSRF. :)

So calm down, maybe rent Shinobi and see how it *plays*. In the end, that's the important thing.

gabriel
10-27-2002, 09:56 AM
When Baratus said he doesnt think it "looks" cool anymore, I dont think he meant the graphics. At least when I say "looks good/cool", I actually mean "It looks interesting, I'd like to play it" :P

And the last part about Sega sucking and working exclusively for XBox makes sense too: Since Sega sucks, and Xbox sucks, they can work and suck together :) At least that's what I think he meant.... (personally, I like both Sega and the Xbox ;))

xsarien
10-27-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by gabriel
When Baratus said he doesnt think it "looks" cool anymore, I dont think he meant the graphics. At least when I say "looks good/cool", I actually mean "It looks interesting, I'd like to play it" :P


True. I vote that we drag him back for some kind of explanation of what he meant. :)



And the last part about Sega sucking and working exclusively for XBox makes sense too: Since Sega sucks, and Xbox sucks, they can work and suck together :) At least that's what I think he meant.... (personally, I like both Sega and the Xbox ;))

You know, I never really looked at it like that. But, seriously, it'd be financial suicide for Sega, just as working exclusively for the GCN would be bad. And I like Sega too much to ever support either decision. :)