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View Full Version : Polygon: Xbox One policy "gross, despicable, greedy, pathetic, cowardly"


progmetal
06-07-2013, 02:51 PM
After a month of vague corporate comments from Microsoft executives, we now know the Xbox One's game licensing policy was written from the ground up for companies. It's aggressively anti-consumer and anti-middle class, and it outright ignores underprivileged gamers. It's gross, despicable, greedy, pathetic, cowardly and out of touch with a growing global resentment for corporations.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/7/4406170/xbox-one-internet-trade-policy

Ernst
06-07-2013, 02:52 PM
Hear, hear.

Nem
06-07-2013, 02:56 PM
Agreed.

Consumers have to make a stand and send a clear message to microsoft, not with words anymore but with our wallets. I eagerly await to see a disastrous launch with lots of units on the shelves.

Actually... retailers should make a stand aswell and refuse to carry them. Their business is beeing put at risk by this aswell. They are beeing hit the hardest.

At this point i just want to hear Sony tells us that theres not gonna be any DRM sillyness on the PS4. After that, the deal should be sealed and Microsoft led to its failure.

Escaflowne2001
06-07-2013, 03:26 PM
meh...

Rubeus
06-07-2013, 03:31 PM
History repeats itself -- no company was ever successful with its 3rd console systems

Drunken Savior
06-07-2013, 04:38 PM
I don't think you guys should buy it. That's all that really needs to be said.

Joe Redifer
06-07-2013, 08:23 PM
Yeah, I don't really need to be convinced NOT to buy it. It will take a lot of convincing to buy it. The PS4 certainly looks like a better system but even that I'll need to be convinced.

spider-prime
06-07-2013, 08:39 PM
According to his thread, I must now buy 60 Xbox Ones to make up the burden that you guys aren't buying! Come on guys, Microsoft execs need to eat more stem cells to live longer! They aren't cheap!

Paper exe
06-07-2013, 08:54 PM
These anti consumer, anti gaming polices are LITERALLY killing video games.

$%## and #$%@@ to whoever don't care or don't realize on the danger Microsoft is causing against the video game industry and against the consumer.


You people are mad and hateful on everything but when it GETS serious, when the gaming industry is at danger you simply don't care and aren't pissed!? WHAT WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

You people are the worst! you people are the worst!!! nothing but useless Ha8rs.

Ernst
06-07-2013, 09:05 PM
I wish King of Sentinels was still around. I'd like to see his defence of this.

Einhander
06-07-2013, 09:44 PM
According to his thread, I must now buy 60 Xbox Ones to make up the burden that you guys aren't buying! Come on guys, Microsoft execs need to eat more stem cells to live longer! They aren't cheap!

I thought they ate fresh baby hearts.

Also KoS left?

No wonder it's been so much less shitty in here!

spider-prime
06-07-2013, 10:17 PM
I thought they ate fresh baby hearts.

Also KoS left?

No wonder it's been so much less shitty in here!

*zing!*

Einhander
06-07-2013, 10:26 PM
Never change Spider! You are The Man!

:crono::thumb-up::clap:

Drunken Savior
06-07-2013, 11:04 PM
The PS4 certainly looks like a better system but even that I'll need to be convinced.

Sony has said time and time before that they will not be forcing DRM on the PS4.............................



....but publishers will be free to do so. I'm sure they won't though, otherwise people will leave the PS4 for...ummm....hmmm.....

TheHardware
06-08-2013, 01:05 AM
Never change Spider! You are The Man!

:crono::thumb-up::clap:

I thought he was a spider...


Microsoft is under a lot of pressure from its shareholders, the xbone isn't just competing with PlayStation and Nintendo anymore...throw apple, google and Samsung into the mix. the xbone needs to be the machine that catapults MS alongside or past those other companies.

they have smartglass, skype, xbox, kinect, windows phone and windows....these things all had to be put in, because of the investment these things are. the company wants to have that unified feeling that Apple has and that feature rich feeling that Samsung has. they are putting a LOT into this system.

Sulblazer
06-08-2013, 03:36 AM
DRM stuff doesn't sound too bad to me. I think most of us are overreacting because this is relatively new to console gaming. The PS4 may not be forcing DRM...yet, but I would imagine that's how all mainstream gaming software will be in the future. I honestly didn't think current gen console piracy was so rampant that they had to resort to periodic online checks for their next gen stuff.

The cold reality is that the future of gaming, console or otherwise, will eventually be DRM'd. I would say the only way to change that is if there was a unified consumer push to boycott DRM software/consoles...and I don't see that kind of solidarity happening anytime soon. What will truly decide MS XBOX One's fate is software quality. If the games are great and exclusive...I think that'll override most of the apprehension people have about console DRM. If the games are mediocre and also available on PC or PS4...they'll be screwed (this gen anyway). But MS, with their penchant and ability to bankroll through their problems, will eventually get some pretty good exclusive titles down the line. At the end of the day, if XBOX One sales just as well as the PS4 or better...what's gonna dissuade Sony from getting their own DRM policy together?

The days of a self-contained gaming console are numbered...hell, some would even argue they've been over with current gen consoles. I think handheld devices are the last haven against DRM...but who knows how long that will even last? The way I see it, we've got few options...roll with it, bitch about something we have very little power to change, or crank out the old systems. As for me, I'mma let future me deal it. Right now, I have Final Fantasy XIII X2 to finish.

Paper exe
06-08-2013, 06:23 AM
OMG OMG OMG you people are sick! that's the only explanation!

The announcement of the PS4 was all positive to gaming and people liked it but you people some who got mad and hated it!!!? Now the xbone which one everything wrong is ok! My God I knew it you people are mindless and just want to go against the stream to feel like you have a brain and show off that you have an opinion.

Pathetic!


EDIT: Not reading this thread any more, you guys are mean and purposely want to drive me mad with your always anti-gaming "opinions". The %$%# at microsoft made it to be my personal business they have no right to try to kill my favorite thing in earth. @#$% @#$% @#$% @######$% them!

And you people calm, happy and against the stream attitude is crying to be offended. i am going to hold my self and back away any more of this going to put my rage on the forum members on personal level as this is too much to bare and is serious business!

Icarus4578
06-08-2013, 08:02 AM
Paper (mind if I call you Pap?), Microsoft's anti-consumer policies and arrogant attitude are serious problems which people would have to be foolish to ignore. If Sony decides to go down a similar route in an attempt to set a precedence for expanded corporate control, I will have nothing to do with either console and will just stick with retro gaming and of course the ultimate in home video game entertainment, the Wii U.

Ernst
06-08-2013, 08:11 AM
Guys, it looks like we have a traitor within the walls.

Sulblazer
06-08-2013, 09:11 AM
I don't deal in treachery...but I do try to be as realistic as possible. DRM is coming...whether you like it or not. If Xbone get some great exclusive titles...there's a good chance I'll eventually pick the console up. If not, then screw 'em. Why doesn't this bug me too badly? I dunno. I suppose I'm used to it because of pc gaming and software. Does this mean MS is reaching for more corporate control? Maybe...I'm not sure. Does that mean I'll skip out on great titles because of it? No....first and foremost, I enjoy games...I try to leave the politics at the door.

Is DRM a threat to the gaming industry? Once again, I dunno. I haven't read a single piece of literature that provides a convincing answer either way. Furthermore, if you're a retrogaming aficionado like Icarus, then you think most of the modern stuff out today belongs in the back alley anyways.

I can understand the concern. I, too, wonder what this means for console gaming and its overall affect, if any, on the industry and consumers. I dunno what's up with Paper exe there...a case of gaming rage, I suppose. But he's a prime example of this knee-jerk emotional reaction...and understandably so....I mean, gaming is pretty important for all of us here. But going off the deep end, like paper exe apparently did, doesn't really promote understanding does it?

I don't pretend to know what DRM means for us as gamers. I just know that it's coming...Sony and Nintendo may have opted out this upcoming gen, but I wouldn't hold my breath they'll elect the same non-DRM path the gen afterwards. DRM notwithstanding, if the Xbone get some great titles, the system will sale well. And really, after all that's said and done, isn't that all we want as gamers. Good games...that's all I really want. So long as this digital protection shenanigans doesn't get in the way of that, I guess I don't care about it.

Icarus4578
06-08-2013, 10:11 AM
Yeah, ownership and privacy are so overrated. We just want to play games.

stroopwafel
06-08-2013, 01:20 PM
Yeah I'm also surprised someone can be so permissive when it comes to a corporation infringing on your rights as a consumer. Espescially when there is a very simple solution: don't buy the fucking thing! Vote with your wallet. It's the only way a company like microsfort gets the message. I really can't stand people with such a permissive attitude. Its the same as people who are too lazy to vote and say ''..but what is just one vote hur-dur?''. And yes with this attitude people get what they deserve: despots in government and malicious corporations DRM'ing your game console.

For me personally I never supported microsfort unless no other choice(like with pre-installed winbloze OS's on laptops). I'm actually quite surprised people are so offended by microsfort's practices when they have always been monopolistic, anti-consumer, corporate douchebags. I never bought an xbox or xbox 360 for exactly this reason. I always knew microsfort would go this route when technology permitted.

Just look at winbloze pre-installed on very laptop. You have to pay like 80 euros extra here to unlock m$ word. A word processor. That is already on your laptop's OS. Just let that reality sink in for a moment. A word processor. A FUCKING WORD PROCESSOR!!!!

You really think they would leave console gaming alone?

Just as microsfort has computer hardware and software by the balls(just now feeling the heat from Apple) so to will they try and monopolize, yes monopolize, the games market.

When the solution is so simple: DON'T BUY THIS PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT. Please, please don't be a meek apologist and let microsfort get away with this garbage. This company is like a cancer. You're single-handledly destroying our favorite hobby.

Joe Redifer
06-08-2013, 02:48 PM
What I like is that when Microsoft shuts down their servers or I take my system somewhere that has no internet, my games no longer work. And don't give me that shit about "by then you'll be playing newer games". Yeah, nobody plays old games. I do hope hackers break this bitch apart, though.

Ernst
06-08-2013, 03:07 PM
I e never bought any Microsoft product other than Windows for the same reason.

Icarus4578
06-09-2013, 12:10 AM
While companies like Microsoft are partially to blame, the real blame lies directly with the consumers who support this lousy trash. As stroopwafel alluded to, unless people stop supporting these anti-consumer policies, the problem will continue to perpetuate itself and grow even worse over time. I saw the writing on the wall years ago. As well, keep an eye on Sony because from what I've been hearing they're heading down a similar path. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Escaflowne2001
06-09-2013, 12:32 AM
As well, keep an eye on Sony because from what I've been hearing they're heading down a similar path. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Your man on the inside hey?

Icarus4578
06-09-2013, 01:07 AM
Various online sources and quotes from Sony reps.

Escaflowne2001
06-09-2013, 01:08 AM
such as?

Nem
06-09-2013, 07:18 AM
The quote from Sony is that they will leave it to the publishers but not require something themselves. The general interpretation of that is that the Playstation 4 wont have any DRM and publishers can still use those online passes themselves if they want to.
Also given the fan anti-drm campaign and their reactios i would be really surprised if they had DRM. It would be a royal shot in the foot.

Escaflowne2001
06-09-2013, 07:24 AM
Yeah I know I've said I expected Sony to use DRM as well the past. I don't think they will anymore, even if they planned to before they will have seen all the butthurt since the XBox One announcment and if wise would have changed there plans to get a real foothold on Microsoft. With the WiiU really flagging and all the negativity surrounding the XBox this would be there chance to really get off to a great start.

Reality
06-09-2013, 10:22 AM
I am kinda surprised by people's reaction for all this. Given the company behind the policy and all. Ever since I knew Microsoft was making a console I figured this kind of thing was a matter of time.

Their entire plan from the beginning was to become a living room center box and control the different forms of media people would have access too through it. You don't spend 2 billion in lose on the first Xbox alone to offer freedom 2 generations later.

Sulblazer
06-09-2013, 07:45 PM
While companies like Microsoft are partially to blame, the real blame lies directly with the consumers who support this lousy trash. As stroopwafel alluded to, unless people stop supporting these anti-consumer policies, the problem will continue to perpetuate itself and grow even worse over time. I saw the writing on the wall years ago. As well, keep an eye on Sony because from what I've been hearing they're heading down a similar path. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Of course it always comes back to consumer demands, there's no question about it. But is it lousy trash? Physical mediums are evaporating. Believe me, if Nintendo or Sega had the technology, infrastructure, and money back in the 80's, we wouldn't have had video game cartridges to begin with. Ownership is transitioning from physical medium to owning licenses. We're in that transition period. Music, books, movies, cloud services...these are all based on the idea of owning licenses. Sure, there are still book readers who prefer the "spine and grind" over a Kindle. Sure, there are still music lovers who prefer disc, tape, vinyl over a digital music player. The fact remains, however, that there is an increasing demand for digital ownership. Personally, I'd much rather have my book collection on a single Kindle than having shelves and shelves of books. Console video games, for whatever reasons, have manage to stave off the digital encroachment so far...but this industry is not immune either. We are already able to download and play games right off our Playstore or Xbox Live accounts. Steam, albeit for PCs, is another successful example of how digital distribution will hail the end of ownership of physical mediums. In the near future, consumerism of information will be distilled down to licenses.

The problem, it seems, is that unlike physical mediums that can be easily passed along to another person, licenses are tied to individual accounts and therefore poses more logistical difficulties when attempting to transfer ownership from one account to another. Another big problem with digital medium is unauthorized duplication. Once again, we're still in the transition stage...so all the kinks have not been worked out with regards to security and ownership. With E-books, for example, Amazon has a feature to allow me to "loan" out my license for a book for a limited time period to another person. I find the process annoying...especially since with a physical medium it was so easy to just hand a friend a book. With that being said, I don't think Amazon is trying to screw me, I just think as it stands...the sharing of licenses is still a fairly new idea that hasn't yet matured. I'm sure there are all sorts of laws that still has to be looked at and/or amended to allow ease of transaction. Furthermore, the technology hasn't matured yet either. It'd be nice to just wave my Kindle over another person's E-reader and bam, the book is transferred. So I think as the laws are changed and as technology improves, the sharing of licenses will also be an improved experience. Microsoft sees the trend of licenses and created the Xbone to keep up or be ahead of the curve. As far as DRM policies goes, I find that MS is being remarkably flexible in an attempt address its consumer concerns while also attempting to maintain security and profits. I'm not trying to defend Microsoft, but in understanding some of the difficulties of license sharing, I can see how MS is stuck between a rock and you know the rest of the metaphor.

I think the biggest fears people have about the idea of license ownership is that they feel there's a loss of freedom in what they can do with their property. In fact, it even calls into question whether or not the a person can even consider the license their "property". After all, what good is owning something if you can't make a decision about who to include or exclude from its usage? These are tough questions, and ones that I think Microsoft (or anyone else embarking on the DRM road) should find clear answers for. Not to sound too cliche and obvious, but the world is changing...and like most changes (especially changes that forces us to reassess our relationship with our property or privacy), this will invariably cause the gamut from discomfort to outrage. The good news is that as far as video games are concerned, this transitional period we're in is a ripe time to divert or mold changes into something we can accept. I get the sense that Microsoft has not yet revealed or developed all of its DRM plans yet...and will possibly make amendments as needed in response broad consumer outcry. I'm sure Nintendo and Sony will be watching very closely as they develop their own DRM policies. The bad news is that change requires consumer solidarity...of which I see little of. As a kid, I think my Legend of Zelda cartridge was eventually borrowed by all the other Nintendo loving kids in my neighborhood. I was the only one who owned that gleaming, gold cartridge and there was a sense of satisfaction and pride that came with it. These emotions, I don't think, can never be replicated by license ownerships. Having said that, however, I haven't purchased a CD in more than 5 years...hell, my son thinks it's archaic to use disk to play music off of. I've stop buying DVDs and Blu-Rays altogether since last year. If a book I want is available as an E-book...I'll usually opt for that instead. Call me a defeatist or whatever, but I'm part and parcel of the consumers base who finds the convenience of license ownership preferable to the physical mediums. That Legend of Zelda cartridge, along with a number of others are now in a box in the attic of my home...untouched for years. My son played Legend of Zelda on the Wii through the Wii shop, he loved it. Unlike myself, when he's older, his memory of that great game will be linked to its immaterial contents not a physical item.

stroopwafel
06-09-2013, 08:31 PM
Yeah but like you say so yourself the keyword is ''choice''. And choice is good. If you prefer digital downloads you have that choice. But in the case of books or movies like you mention, does that mean they ceased to exist as a physical medium? No. You have a choice. A choice a greedy ass malicious corporation like micro$oft wants to take from you by making even the physical medium worthless b/c they are locked and registered to your account on a piece of shit that needs to connect to the internet every 24 hours so m$ can keep tabs on you.

This has nothing to do with ''the world is changing''. Don't give me that bullshit. This is about microsfort taking away your rights as a consumer. Your right to own a product you bought and paid for. The entire history of microsfort is one of monopolization and this perverted scheme just befits their true nature. Just look at what they did to the market for operating systems. Near every laptop has winbloze pre-installed. With much more computer hardware and software applications only working under fucking winbloze. There is just no denying that fucking company. And you think all this is just microsfort's attempt to ''maintain a profit''? These fucks extortion you with their monopoly of billions of dollars.

Digital downloads are fine and convenient, and often they have my preference as well. But I also often prefer physical copies of things I really like. Something I won't lose or are unable to play anymore when someone pulls the plug and the server shuts down.

But hey, if you want Steve Ballmer(or whoever runs the show at microsfort now) to decide when and for how long you can play the games you bought, more power to you I guess.

Escaflowne2001
06-09-2013, 09:03 PM
Digital downloads are fine and convenient, and often they have my preference as well. But I also often prefer physical copies of things I really like. Something I won't lose or are unable to play anymore when someone pulls the plug and the server shuts down.

You say it like it's just Microsoft it's going to be the same with all the downloaded games on 3DS/WiiU after Nintendo shuts down there servers. The games are tied to your machines so if that breaks they'll be gone for good.

In the end Microsoft could easily release an update in the future that means you don't need to check in or that you no longer need to do a online check for games when the time comes. No one knows but that's something Nintendo cannot do with there dodgy system.

spider-prime
06-10-2013, 01:29 AM
and that's why I don't buy any digital games on consoles or handhelds anymore unless they are dirt cheap.

Pikachief
06-10-2013, 02:29 AM
You say it like it's just Microsoft it's going to be the same with all the downloaded games on 3DS/WiiU after Nintendo shuts down there servers. The games are tied to your machines so if that breaks they'll be gone for good.

In the end Microsoft could easily release an update in the future that means you don't need to check in or that you no longer need to do a online check for games when the time comes. No one knows but that's something Nintendo cannot do with there dodgy system.

Yea I don't see why Microsoft just wouldn't remove the requirement for the online HDD checks if and when their servers go down. I'm not worried about it.

Drunken Savior
06-10-2013, 05:08 AM
Anyone else thinks that MS is going to have a lot of malicious attacks on their Xbox One servers during the first weeks (or couple of weeks) of launch resulting in not a single early adopter getting to play anything? Maybe that would hasten the removal of the 24 hour check.

Icarus4578
06-10-2013, 09:14 AM
Sulblazer, you consider the move from owning a product to paying full retail value for a mere temporary license where you concede control over to a corporate entity to be one of benefit to the consumer? These corporate suits must think we're all just lemmings with wallets who will fall into any ditch they dug. Let's see how Microsoft likes it when a huge percentage of their user-base abandons their platform forever, myself included.

You mentioned Zelda for the NES. Yeah, remember what it felt like to own something? To hold a unique, tangible item in your hands? Remember those awesome full-color instruction manuals and the slip cases? Remember the freedom of not being monitored 24/7 by unseen eyes? Remember being able to trade, borrow, rent or sell your product sans corporate intervention?

Any corporate entity which treats consumers with utter disregard, does not respect consumer ownership of the products we purchase, nor respects our right to privacy, does not deserve respect in return. We have the power to suffocate these greedy corporations simply by not supporting them financially. Publishers can keep all their software and tech for themselves. I'll keep my money. That's my policy.

IoriYagami n8
06-10-2013, 01:51 PM
Maybe I'm not researching into it enough, but other than the 24 hour online requirement, can anyone explain how this is any different than Steam?

Drunken Savior
06-10-2013, 02:03 PM
Competition. You can purchase Steam keys at various stores, meaning they are all competing. Competition means lower prices and that's better for gamers, especially if we are trading away absolute ownership in turn for DRM.

I doubt you can get MS digital games online other than from MS.

That's one.

Sulblazer
06-10-2013, 03:44 PM
Screw it, it's all moot now anyways. Killer Instincts, biatches!

Joe Redifer
06-10-2013, 04:10 PM
Buying an Xbox One for Killer Instinct is like eating a Tic-Tac before being force-fed a turd. You'll only be able to play the new Killer Instinct for a limited time.

Plus, Killer Instinct sucks.

Escaflowne2001
06-10-2013, 04:34 PM
Buying an Xbox One for Killer Instinct is like eating a Tic-Tac before being force-fed a turd. You'll only be able to play the new Killer Instinct for a limited time.

When the time comes they can easily get rid of the things like the online checks and the disc checks at the end of the console life with an update I would imagine. That would solve the problem.

stroopwafel
06-10-2013, 05:14 PM
When the time comes they can easily get rid of the things like the online checks and the disc checks at the end of the console life with an update I would imagine. That would solve the problem.


Why sell something at the detriment of your own public perception only to reverse the restrictions later? Makes no sense. If anything, with the reveal of the xbone m$ put the system in the best possible light. Just how the system will be at launch. Imagine that. Most likely they will clamp down even further if the system were to gain traction. No make that definitely. They have a long, long history of such practices to build upon.

IoriYagami n8
06-10-2013, 05:30 PM
The same reason you place a game for sale or give it away for free as a reward, because you aren't going to see much in terms of sales that late in life.

For as long as they can push buying titles direct instead of used, or try to curb piracy, and make more money, they will. Once titles stop selling and the console isn't seeing much in terms of support, there is no point in paying the server cost to keep those features going.

Escaflowne2001
06-10-2013, 05:32 PM
...why? so you don't get the situation JR described of course besides they'll stop making money from it at that point. In the end that could be what 5-6 years. I'm expecting everything to be digital by then near enough weather it's XBONE or PS4 tbh.

stroopwafel
06-10-2013, 05:37 PM
The same reason you place a game for sale or give it away for free as a reward, because you aren't going to see much in terms of sales that late in life.

For as long as they can push buying titles direct instead of used, or try to curb piracy, and make more money, they will. Once titles stop selling and the console isn't seeing much in terms of support, there is no point in paying the server cost to keep those features going.

Pretty naive. You really think M$ gives a shit about those 'poor gamers' when they sucked them dry of their money? Once a certain game don't earn them money anymore they will simply cease support eventually rendering all your games worthless. We're talking about a company that just revels in disdain for its customers here.


...why? so you don't get the situation JR described of course besides they'll stop making money from it at that point. In the end that could be what 5-6 years. I'm expecting everything to be digital by then near enough weather it's XBONE or PS4 tbh.

This is not about digital distribution. Which indeed has a large future. This is about digital restrictions and content control.

Escaflowne2001
06-10-2013, 05:40 PM
MS care about as much as any other large company but at the same time there not suicidal.

stroopwafel
06-10-2013, 05:44 PM
Just look at the other areas they are active in. The way they monopolized operating systems. nuff said.

Escaflowne2001
06-10-2013, 05:48 PM
Never really followed all that stuff, they've never done anything bad to me personally. That's all I can go on. I'm a happy Windows 8 user.

stroopwafel
06-10-2013, 05:59 PM
And then one day you wake up and realize every piece of software you use and need and rely upon must be permitted by micro$oft.

Escaflowne2001
06-10-2013, 06:16 PM
If that's the way it goes then so be it. If not then so be it. I'm not really going to worry about it. There are always alternatives if that's your thing.

Sulblazer
06-10-2013, 08:24 PM
Plus, Killer Instinct sucks.

It does? Well, news to me. I'm sure your opinion is reputable and universal and all....but if it's all the same to you, I'll decide it's level of turdiness myself, thanks.

Drunken Savior
06-10-2013, 08:29 PM
I donno how you can refute that well thought out argument.

Sulblazer
06-10-2013, 09:46 PM
And then one day you wake up and realize every piece of software you use and need and rely upon must be permitted by micro$oft.

It's Microsoft again?! I thought it was suppose to be Google? Last year was "Apple is going to take over the world!"

I can't keep up with these dystopian threats to our world. I'm taking bets on the Samsung being the new world order next year...any takers?

Ernst
06-11-2013, 12:07 AM
Icarus, Esca. Where's the prophecised DRM? Sony kicked ass.

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 12:15 AM
I'm honestly shocked a little myself. I thought for sure there'd be some.

Well, now it's in the consumers hand to vote with their wallets.

Reality
06-11-2013, 01:08 AM
True with that you are. The way M$ went ahead with these plans and then how Sony countered seems almost like a fan fiction instead of a actual business strategy.

Take for example AT&T and Verizon. Both those companies pretty much hate humans. When one changes their packages and rates to a "less for more" angle, you'd think this be a great chance for the competitor to keep their cheaper and better packages intact. Scooping in those unhappy with the bad values their provider just put in place. But no. instead they announce a equally as bad offering the next day. Its as if one guy says "Sir look! Verizon found a new way to really screw people even harder then last year. We better do the same or else the share holders will complain."

And yet to my surprise Sony not only announced no over the top repulsive DRM. They even even promoted that decision. Good for them. Good for us really.

Sulblazer
06-11-2013, 01:53 AM
Sony being a hundred bucks cheaper...and vow to no DRM...it doesn't take much to know MS is gonna be in a heap of trouble. Killer Instincts or no...Sony is wooing me once again.

Paper exe
06-11-2013, 02:07 AM
yes yes yes yes yes in your faces xbox whores!! IN YOUR FACES WHORES!!



And yet to my surprise Sony not only announced no over the top repulsive DRM. They even even promoted that decision. Good for them. Good for us really.

That because sony isn't run by Jews (AKA dirty cheap and many leftover are still in America)


God bliss japan the strange land where they make quality product and CARE about consumer trust. Hence sony noble move toward gaming as a whole and Nintendo's DLC polices. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3



AND A BIG FINGER TO USA CORPORATE. screw you and go to hell. The trash at the atari era has done enough harm and toke good and honest western developers to quite consoles!!. Toke them 20 years to make a return after Japan resurrection of gaming.

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 02:54 AM
Icarus, Esca. Where's the prophecised DRM? Sony kicked ass.

Hiding under a rock, with the playstation 4 exculsives. :)

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 02:56 AM
Sony being a hundred bucks cheaper...and vow to no DRM...it doesn't take much to know MS is gonna be in a heap of trouble. Killer Instincts or no...Sony is wooing me once again.


Well you certainly change your mind quickly. LOL.

Sulblazer
06-11-2013, 05:07 AM
Hey, 100 bucks ain't nothin' to scoff at, especially since both systems are comparable in specs. Now that Sony has revealed their hand, it does make me wonder if MS got anything up their sleeves. Sony's announcement, I think, is going to make for an interesting next gen battle. Ahhh...the joys of an open, competitive market.

Icarus4578
06-11-2013, 09:05 AM
kWSIFh8ICaA

I'm surprised. Sony really paid attention to all the backlash against Microsoft and didn't mimic their horrible policies. PS4 does not require internet, doesn't require an invasive camera and does not DRM used games. If all that's really true, Microsoft is going to get destroyed.

calintz
06-11-2013, 09:29 AM
the vocal internet community sadly doesnt represent the majority of the buying public

Nem
06-11-2013, 09:41 AM
Its ok, Microsoft made sure to piss those off too with the 500 dollars/euros price mark.

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 09:44 AM
Yeah and not to mention the mainstream press picked these stories up as well. You have to be pretty oblivious to not know the xbone comes with a heavy set of restrictions. Sony is at a major advantage here. And deservedly so.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 09:49 AM
yes yes yes yes yes in your faces xbox whores!! IN YOUR FACES WHORES!!



That because sony isn't run by Jews (AKA dirty cheap and many leftover are still in America)


God bliss japan the strange land where they make quality product and CARE about consumer trust. Hence sony noble move toward gaming as a whole and Nintendo's DLC polices. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3



AND A BIG FINGER TO USA CORPORATE. screw you and go to hell. The trash at the atari era has done enough harm and toke good and honest western developers to quite consoles!!. Toke them 20 years to make a return after Japan resurrection of gaming.

Holy shit, that's some straight up old school racism right there. People take this console shit way too seriously.

80-90% of all games on one console are also on the other, so why the hell should anyone care which system another person buys? We will all be playing the same shit anyway.

I really can't see how so many people bitch about Microsoft and DRM when they have been taking it from Steam with a smile on their face for so many years. At least be fair with your outrage. If Microsoft uses a Steam model with their digital releases in terms of pricing, pre-order, and bundles. That DRM issue is going to go away really fast in the mind of most gamers, I would suspect most wouldn't even get off their couches to go buy disc based games at that point. So we will see if Microsoft has the balls to do it. I doubt they do, but after how Sony scalped them on price, I could see them pushing something like that. Selling the PS4 at that price, Sony is looking to recoup from game sells and PS+ subscriptions (probably why online play is limited now). If MS drives the market with Steam like pricing for software, Sony will take some pretty substantial long term losses in order to keep up. That, or they simply maintain higher game prices and hope people stick with them due to DRM and so forth.

But there are two things I've learned as a gamer. One, you can sell a product $100-$200 dollars more than the competition and still remain competitive, then bring down the price over time (see PS3 vs 360). Two, you can fuck people with DRM as much as you want and they will cheer you on for it, as long as you give them incentive to do so (see Steam).

It seems people have no issues paying more for a console, and they certainly have no issues paying for games they don't actually own as long as the pricing and convenience is there.

Sony is certainly pushing really hard to be competitive this time around. Probably because of how poorly the company has done in recent years and how much market share they gave up this past generation. It's good to see that they understand their need to compete and that they can't just ride on the Playstation brand anymore. But if anyone thinks Microsoft is dead and out, they are fooling themselves. Microsoft is no more done than Sony was when they launched the PS3 at that ridiculous $500-$600 price point, people still lined up days ahead of release to buy that shit, and they will do the same for a console with DRM restrictions or not.

Fuck, I don't even know why people bitch about all the focus media functions get over games. Don't fool yourself, 90% of the people that own a PS3 and 360 spend 70% of their time watching Netflix and Hulu. So obviously that shit is important to someone.

Ernst
06-11-2013, 09:54 AM
Holy shit, that's some straight up old school racism right there. People take this console shit way too seriously.


Of course it is. Paper's, what he would call, 'a devoted Muslim', what we would call a hateful racist. I mean sure, Israel is systematically destroying Palestine, but not every Jew is an Israeli, just as not every Muslim is a Palestinian. So why he gives a fuck about Palestine is beyond me. Christ, I fucking hate religion... (I'm assuming the Palestine thing is why he hates Jews so much he is happily using Nazi propaganda).

I really can't see how so many people bitch about Microsoft and DRM when they have been taking it from Steam with a smile on their face for so many years. At least be fair with your outrage. If Microsoft uses a Steam model with their digital releases in terms of pricing, pre-order, and bundles. That DRM issue is going to go away really fast in the mind of most gamers, I would suspect most wouldn't even get off their couches to go buy disc based games at that point.

I really don't understand why people are so willing to actively defend DRM. I mean it's asking to have less ownership of products you buy, period. That's what these people who support it want. And why? Because they have some sort of misplaced loyalty to a corporation. Frankly, it's almost Orwellian. Not that that's what you're doing Iori, because I don't know where you stand on it, since your post was pretty much just an excoriation of people who dislike DRM and didn't include your stance on it.

Which, of course, was followed up with reasons why Sony are making a risky decision to release the console cheaper. Was it a risky decision when Microsoft released the X Box 360 cheaper? Or was the high price tag of the PS3 thought to be what actually let Microsoft take over the market? No one thinks Microsoft is dead, but they do think that Sony is going to lead the market again.

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 10:10 AM
I don't use steam(not a PC gamer) but isn't that supposed to be a service opposed to a console? People know what they are getting into and take loss of ownership in exchange for a lower price. That's true. But if that's what you want you already have the option of doing so, as people generally don't buy a console just to receive a service. Otherwise what would be the difference between a regular PC and a heavily modified/restricted one as the xbone?

It's apples and oranges. Completely different markets. Not to mention the profit model of m$ won't allow for competitive pricing and they have far less goodwill.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 10:33 AM
I really don't understand why people are so willing to actively defend DRM. I mean it's asking to have less ownership of products you buy, period. That's what these people who support it want. And why? Because they have some sort of misplaced loyalty to a corporation. Frankly, it's almost Orwellian. Not that that's what you're doing Iori, because I don't know where you stand on it, since your post was pretty much just an excoriation of people who dislike DRM and didn't include your stance on it.

Which, of course, was followed up with reasons why Sony are making a risky decision to release the console cheaper. Was it a risky decision when Microsoft released the X Box 360 cheaper? Or was the high price tag of the PS3 thought to be what actually let Microsoft take over the market? No one thinks Microsoft is dead, but they do think that Sony is going to lead the market again.

I would say my stance is practical. I don't really care one way or another about the Xbox One restrictions because they don't impact my habits. The only time my console isn't online is when I take it somewhere, then it is promptly reconnected. I don't buy used games, nor do I lend or sell my own games so the DRM thing doesn't change anything for me.

As a result, I'll just go with whatever console most my friends pick up, because the most fun I get out of my time gaming is when I am playing multiplayer games with them.

I don't use steam(not a PC gamer) but isn't that supposed to be a service opposed to a console? People know what they are getting into and take loss of ownership in exchange for a lower price. That's true. But if that's what you want you already have the option of doing so, as people generally don't buy a console just to receive a service. Otherwise what would be the difference between a regular PC and a heavily modified/restricted one as the xbone?

It's apples and oranges. Completely different markets. Not to mention the profit model of m$ won't allow for competitive pricing and they have far less goodwill.

You use the Steam service to buy and play games. You buy a console in order to buy and play it's games. I fail to see a huge difference. If anything, it furthers how little the overall market cares about DRM. On the PC they have the option of going elsewhere, buying games through another retail service, buying a physical copy, and yet the majority of PC games continue to stick with Steam. The service has a huge library and offers a lot of nice features, as a result, people are willing to take the hit. I can see the mass market having the same kind of attitude about the Xbox One, it wouldn't surprise me. The only thing that would surprise me is if Microsoft made the right choice in pushing buyers toward DRM by using Steam-tactics with bundles and pricing.

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Like I said: why would people buy a console for a steam like service when it's already available for their PC? A service is something you install on your PC, a console is something you buy games for. See the difference? They are separate markets.

And the intent of m$ was never to be a platform for competitive pricing with the xbone. Don't give me that crap. You draw a false analogy. The intent of m$ is to sell a game at full price, lock it to your account so others can't play the game(or heavily restricted), and leech you further of your money by not giving you direct ownership but rather lending you a license to play the game. A license that can be revoked at the choosing of m$. Or one that will be suspended once m$ ceases support of your game, effectively making that game(and eventually the entire xbone) a completely worthless piece of plastic.

People don't buy consoles for aberrations like this. As the backlash against the Xbone and warm welcome of the PS4 have proven.

Ernst
06-11-2013, 11:05 AM
The only thing I'd add to Stroop's response is that your answer suggests you are fairly short sighted in your view of this. You don't seem to account for the fact that the more Microsoft gets away with, the more it will try and get away with. Two things which come to mind: Killer Instinct being released by character, and that concerning patent of theirs, which would allow Kinect to shut your X Box down if too many people were in the room.

zechin
06-11-2013, 11:12 AM
It's quite simple why Steam is successful. Discounts + Catalogues of games and a community. It's a service, that's it. People may have a bucketful of games on the service but in the end it's a service and it's convenient. If you have a PC and an internet connection the answer is obvious to most of us 'gamers'.

But that's where I draw the very fine line of difference between Console vs PC games department. I play and buy games to have fun, an entertainment experience different to music or films, which is ironically becoming more and more like the music and film industry. And if I can't get the experience anywhere else or if I can't enjoy an experience as well as I would on a console vs a PC then I'm getting a console for it. People can say but you're wasting money when you already have a console or a PC. It doesn't matter, because in the end you're paying for the experience YOU want.

Paper exe
06-11-2013, 11:22 AM
Holy shit, that's some straight up old school racism right there. People take this console shit way too seriously.



.

NO NO NO NO NO For the first time ever this console war should be taking seriously, Microsoft made it to be my personal business.


There greedy policy if succeed going to kill gaming!

DRM means when the server shut you cannot play your older games. no more collection. what part of this atrocity you don't get? And this is but a small fraction of Microsoft greed!

and 20% is a lot of games i don't want to miss. and if micrsosoft get away with thier greed you can bet your money it going to be 100% in the next few years.




Of course it is. Paper's, what he would call, 'a devoted Muslim', what we would call a hateful racist. I mean sure, Israel is systematically destroying Palestine, but not every Jew is an Israeli, just as not every Muslim is a Palestinian. So why he gives a fuck about Palestine is beyond me. Christ, I fucking hate religion... (I'm assuming the Palestine thing is why he hates Jews so much he is happily using Nazi propaganda).
O M G!!!! What's your problem? just look at all this hatred my god, you have issues. I my self sure do have an issue against Microsoft greedy policy that would ultimately kill gaming the best thing on earth ever made by man kind. I have full right to do so in a video game forums while you have no right to show your hateful racist ugly self in here!

Also you say "off course"!!? what does disliking Xbox Anti gamer policy has anything to do with Islam? Do you sick people (you and the likes of you, hope there is none) are so despretae and htaful that you going to make that an islamic thing?! This is the must idiotic, racism blockmind respond I have ever seen. almost unbelievable honestly.

just for the record we are not the one doing:
A. The media war and spitting lies and hatred against a religion and raic (Fox news making up atrocious stories about islam religion)
B. we are not the one FREAKING waging war. Afghan and iraq (drain all the oil when they were at it.) to name a few!

and yet somehow we are the bad guys and brainwashed too? seriously that must be a joke! and quite the ironic one.

PS: I am sorry for any rude angry responds against Microsoft but I am doing that cause I want to own an xbox one and play it games but now I cannot thanks to their greed. Supporting them is as good as killing gaming and that sacred for me.

They spit on me with their policies it is only fair for me to spit back. *spit* *spite* *spite* :slap:

Beside it is just a corporate why would anyone find it disturbing if I lashed them?! 0_o

Ernst
06-11-2013, 11:29 AM
That because sony isn't run by Jews (AKA dirty cheap and many leftover are still in America)

O M G!!!! What's your problem? just look at all this hatred my god, you have issues... while you have no right to show your hateful racist ugly self in here!

Lol.

Icarus4578
06-11-2013, 11:35 AM
To be honest Paper, you were the one who instigated this with your race-baiting comment about Microsoft being run by Jews. Nobody else brought that up.

Iori, you say that since you don't buy used games that it doesn't affect you. Maybe so but you should look at the larger picture. By supporting MS, you are saying yes to all their bad policies which affect many other people in a negative way. Granted that's your choice but maybe you should reconsider your stance.

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 11:35 AM
Re.: Paper.

A good discussion being spoiled by the village idiot. How unfortunate.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 11:36 AM
I understand what you are saying, why buy a 360 to get Steam level prices and bundles (should Microsoft be smart about it), when you could just use Steam. The problem with that statement is that it is a very narrow view on consumer desires. Why did anyone pay $500-$600 dollars for a PS3 when the 360 was already delivering the same quality of games at a much more reasonable price. Consumers go with brands they are familiar with and what is most convenient for them. Consoles do well because they are hassle free. You just plug it into your TV and go, a lot of people don't want to deal with tweaking their systems to get ideal game performance. They don't want to deal with one game running like crap while others work fine.

I fully understand the "more you get away with, the more you push" mentality. It's why I skipped the Wii U. Nintendo seems to think they don't need to keep up with the competition from a hardware perspective, and they don't really seem to care if third parties support them or not. The Wii showed me how far gone Nintendo has gotten and the Wii U is the first time I've not purchased a Nintendo home console.

If Microsoft gets to the point that they try do pull something that doesn't sit well with me, I will just as quickly drop them and move on as I did with Nintendo.

Iori, you say that since you don't buy used games that it doesn't affect you. Maybe so but you should look at the larger picture. By supporting MS, you are saying yes to all their bad policies which affect many other people in a negative way. Granted that's your choice but maybe you should reconsider your stance.

I'm not too worried about it. People that have an issue will support a different product, I may end up doing so myself depending on how things continue to play out. I made the jump from iOS to Android because I wanted a more open platform when it came to my phones UI. I've lost out on the wealth of app support iOS devices get, but I'm content with my device and the support it has.

It's quite simple why Steam is successful. Discounts + Catalogues of games and a community. It's a service, that's it. People may have a bucketful of games on the service but in the end it's a service and it's convenient. If you have a PC and an internet connection the answer is obvious to most of us 'gamers'.

But that's where I draw the very fine line of difference between Console vs PC games department. I play and buy games to have fun, an entertainment experience different to music or films, which is ironically becoming more and more like the music and film industry. And if I can't get the experience anywhere else or if I can't enjoy an experience as well as I would on a console vs a PC then I'm getting a console for it. People can say but you're wasting money when you already have a console or a PC. It doesn't matter, because in the end you're paying for the experience YOU want.

A very good view on things. The reason Steam works is very clearly stated here, and if Microsoft is smart in how they are pushing for a more digital distribution design, they will look at those aspects of the model from Steam. There are a lot of console gamers out there, a lot of people that wouldn't think of Microsoft adopting a more Steam like model as a bad thing, but rather they would see it as a cheaper way to get the console games they would have bought anyway.

Still, I really doubt Microsoft will make the right moves there. They are likely to sell games just like they have been, only offering day one digital purchases for all their games as well.

As for those people that seem to think Microsoft is going to pull out the rug after a few years and none of the games will work. They have been clear in that the requirements of those titles can be changed as time goes on, so it wouldn't be hard for them to remove the required online crap once the console was no longer making money. I purchased the PC version of the FPS Shadowrun game. It was pretty much dead three months after release. Both Xbox 360 and PC gamers can still login and play Shadowrun today, so I'm not sure where people seem to think Microsoft has a history of pulling support from products. Hell, just look at how long it took them to stop supporting older versions of Windows.

Paper exe
06-11-2013, 01:33 PM
To be honest Paper, you were the one who instigated this with your race-baiting comment about Microsoft being run by Jews. Nobody else brought that up.

.

This is a joke a I heard a lot from forum member Alucard. He told me if I want to say someone really cheap in english say jew it is a harder term. lol I think it was a good one was back in 2006 or something he was teaching me English. :lol: Funny and awesome person, I miss him!

I also say Nigga all the time and joke and exaggerate on "religious" extreme behavior just for joking sake. But don't go as far as turning it in to a personal affair and bring politics, religions, humanitarian right and history in to things and be biased and hateful about it.

I make fun of my self all the time. I know I know many don't get it and think I am serious when I make fun of my self/ culture but you know what that their problem.



Re.: Paper.

A good discussion being spoiled by the village idiot. How unfortunate.
And what good, intelligent or meaningful discussion you contributed here with this post again?


http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/image.php?u=3272&dateline=1361057955

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 03:13 PM
Hell, just look at how long it took them to stop supporting older versions of Windows.

They also let the multiplayer of Halo on the Xbox 1 run for years until the very last people stopped playing it.

Joe Redifer
06-11-2013, 03:21 PM
By buying an Xbox One (why would anyone do that?) you're just contributing to the landfill. Because someday it will no longer be able to play ANY games. Why keep the Xbox One around? To watch TV? Please. So you'll have to throw away your useless Xbox One and every single one of its games. You can't sell it to anyone because it will be useless. Also MS doesn't allow selling. So into the landfill it goes where it takes several thousand years to decompose.

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 03:30 PM
....


In the end Microsoft could easily release an update in the future that means you don't need to check in or that you no longer need to do a online check for games when the time comes. When the console is no longer making money

Ernst
06-11-2013, 03:40 PM
Yeah, they could do that in the end. Alternatively, in the end, they could use the Kinect to start shooting lasers, instantly incinerating anyone playing pirated material.

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 03:48 PM
That'll be cool to. Burn those dirty pirates...

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 04:13 PM
Since I didn't get much of a response on my initial post of asking how things differ from Steam or how Microsoft's policies are really harsh. I finally took the time to fully read up on their statements. I really don't see the huge world changing issue that people have been going on about. There are certainly some things I'm not happy about, but nothing drastic enough that I don't think I could purchase and enjoy an Xbox One.

DRM Issues

When trading in or selling your games to a retailer, Microsoft has a system in place that will allow developers to choose if they want to impose a transfer fee or other business terms with the retailer. The developer has the freedom to do this, Microsoft does not make any money from these, all that is strictly between the developer and the retailer. If developers require a transfer fee, that means that Gamestop will need to pay a charge to acquire the license to your game. They could try to pass that fee on to you, or they could just soak it. But either way, that fee is coming from the developer, not Microsoft.

Sony has clearly said that any DRM will be left up to developers. So in this case, Microsoft has a system in place for developers to use rather than having to do things like Online Passes, but any DRM in this example is in the hands of the developers, that goes for Sony and Microsoft both.

That part of the DRM stuff seems to be misunderstood by most. The bad part, assuming it is worded corerctly, is that Microsoft gives developers two choices on personal resell or gifting a game. You can only do this if the developer allows it, if they allow it, the game can only ever be given once, and that person has to be on your friends list for 30 days. That part is pretty dumb. If they simply allowed developers to say "Yes" or "No" on your ability to gift a game to another person, then that wouldn't be an issue. A game could be given any number of times to anyone you like, friends list or not. Should you not be permitted to gift a game, well, that's the fault of the developer, not Microsoft.

I could see Gamestop trying to setup a deal with a developer that they will pay fees to the developer for acquiring a license from you, in exchange the developer needs to disable your ability to gift the game, leaving you two choices. You either keep your game, or you sell it to a retailer. But again, that's something you can take up with the retailer and the developer. Microsoft doesn't require any such thing.

Always Online

No bones about this one. Unlike the DRM thing, which seems to be misunderstood by many people. The Xbox One will require a connection at least once a day every 24 hours. For most people, this is probably a none issue. But for some areas of the world where ISPs charge based on data usage, or where networks aren't as wide spread, this could cramp sales.

It would be smart of Microsoft to change this to an optional feature. That way if the console is not online, certain online only features won't be accessible. Users will want to connect to get the most out of their experience, that's true of consoles today. But it wouldn't depend on it. When in doubt, leave it up to developers if they want their games to require an always on connection. It isn't like they can't do that as it is.

Kinect is Watching You

Nope. Microsoft was very clear, users have the freedom to completely shut down Kinect if they choose to do so. Some games may require Kinect, which would need to be turned on by the user. But you can always turn it off when you are done. You won't get the nifty "Xbox On" command to start things up, but you can have peace of mind knowing that Kinect isn't listening in the background waiting to hear the words, "Xbox On."

Cool stuff

- You can access you full library of Xbox One games from any Xbox One, just log in!

- You can share your library with up to 10 people, allowing them to log in and access your games from another Xbox One system. I would like to hear more on this one, as it sounds like a friend and I could share libraries and play each others games. We simply can't play the same game at the same time. They say it is for family members, but I'm curious how they plan to differ between family and friends. It sounds kind of like Netflix, where I can provide my login information to a bunch of friends and we can all use the same account with the only limitation being how many devices the account can be connected to at any given time.


Conclusion:

The limitations aren't nearly as bad as people made them sound, the majority of it seems to be left in the hands of the developers, which is what Sony is doing. While Microsoft has a system in place, developers will need to use some kind of DLC like the Online Pass system if they are to DRM their games on PS4.

The only other thing, is that Microsoft was very clear that they can change these policies down the road and that they are currently looking at methods for lending or renting of games. Given how Sony has made that a focus point of their marketing thus far, I wouldn't be surprised to see Microsoft make some changes before launch and to clarify a few of the points people don't seem to understand.

If I buy a PS4, I would be worried that developers may find the resell limitations on the Xbox One increase their profits notably and if so, expect to see them applying DRM to their games on the PS4 as well. While Sony has no ease of use system in place for developers to DRM their games, they have said they will not prevent developers from doing it if they choose.

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 04:24 PM
Ask me whatever you want about Steam or PC gaming. Sorry, I had errands to run this morning. I'm not going to write a manifesto about Steam, but I will clear up any specifics that I can.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 04:39 PM
You misunderstand, when I say I didn't get much response, I mean only one person spoke up rather than several, it had nothing to do with the length or detail of your comment. So I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

Everyone seems to pretty much love Steam and praise Gabe Newell as the second coming of Christ; so when there was this much outrage over the Xbox One DRM, my expectation was that it was excessively harsh and far more imposing than Steam's own DRM. However, what I've found from reading up is that the Xbox One DRM seems to be more forgiving than Steam's DRM. So I'm not quite sure why people aren't equally outraged if DRM is truly the issue. Personally, I think it has to do more with cost and the overall "console war" type of atmosphere that builds up with new systems.

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 04:46 PM
What makes you say that Xbox One's DRM is more harsh than Steam's? There are many things about the logistics and implementation of Steam as a DRM and as a service that differ with Microsoft's Xbox One implementation and logitistics that makes the XBox One less consumer friendly to me.

For example, when I was at Bryce Canyon National Park from June 2011-August 2011, I didn't have the internet. I was playing my Steam games that entire time. I didn't need to check in with Steam once every 24 hours.

Nem
06-11-2013, 05:15 PM
Xbox boss just said on the GT feed that if you dont have an internet connection Microsoft has a product for you: The Xbox 360!

Needless to say i LOL'ed. I'm guessing this will be all over the news soon.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 05:19 PM
That's a valid concern, and as I mentioned in my manifesto above which will likely get a tl;dr response from most, it is one that Microsoft should address.

However, in some other regards things seem better. I can give a game to a friend once I'm done with it, or take in to retail and trade it in towards something else. I can also share my game library with family and friends. As far as I'm aware, once I buy a game on Steam, I'm stuck with it and the only way others can play it is to be on my PC, or be given my account information.

So while Steam would let you play your games offline without any time limit restriction, once you purchase the game, you are stuck with it.

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 05:25 PM
Xbox boss just said on the GT feed that if you dont have an internet connection Microsoft has a product for you: The Xbox 360!

Needless to say i LOL'ed. I'm guessing this will be all over the news soon.

I actually thought that was surprising honest answer and I liked how he didn't skip around the question without answering it. I can see developers making games for the PS3 and XB360 are quite sometime in the future tbh. So there isn't any worry there and it's pretty obvious the XBONE isn't the console for you if you haven't got a internet connection he was hardly going to say the PS4.

Nem
06-11-2013, 05:25 PM
Games on steam dont cost 60 dollars/euros. Its not the same thing.

Escaflowne2001
06-11-2013, 05:29 PM
Games on steam dont cost 60 dollars/euros. Its not the same thing.

Mainland Europe game prices are horrible at retail or otherwise. It's no wonder I get a lot of business that way.

A lot of the prices for big PC games that also have console versions aren't that much different anymore I've noticed recently at least in the UK.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 05:39 PM
Games on steam dont cost 60 dollars/euros. Its not the same thing.

Yeah, I can't speak for euros, but I'm noticing more and more titles that release on Steam release at the same price as their console counterparts. However, they do drop in price quicker and they do offer much better sales. This is a point I was mentioning early in that if Microsoft wants users to overlook some of the DRM limitations, they need to be willing to offer Steam level deals with their digital distribution, since they made a point of saying all their games will release digitally and to retail the same day.

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 05:42 PM
I'm sure there's some give and take between the positivies and negatives between Steam and Microsoft's Xbox One, but I feel that overall, Steam's implementation of DRM benefits the consumer far better.

I'll give you that the ability to actually trade or give away a game on Microsoft is better than what Steam has. Though if I recall correctly, a game can only be given or sold once. I'd hope that a game that can't be resold/regifted would fetch significantly less than one that can. I wonder if people will take that into consideration when they go purchase a used game.

But now let's talk about buying digital games. Steam is one of many places PC gamers can go to buy games. Other options include Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Downloads/b/ref=sa_menu_dgs_gam?ie=UTF8&node=979455011), GreenManGaming (http://www.greenmangaming.com/), Gamefly (http://www.gamefly.com/download-games/), GoG (http://www.gog.com/) (Which has DRM free games, but a smaller collection and consists of mostly older games), and Gamestop (http://www.gamestop.com/pcgames). All of these places can sell games that use Steam DRM, and due to this competition, they generally have sales more often than brick and mortar stores do. This is part of the reason you hear PC gamers talking about the lower cost of software on PC gaming. For Microsoft's Xbox One, as far as we know, there isn't competition, it's all Microsoft's store. There is no incentive for Microsoft to discount games if they have no competition.

The reason I bring this up is because I sense that people here think PC gamers like DRM, which is not true. The sad part is that most of our PC gamers here have left the forums, leaving me and few others as the only active members on the forums who are primarily PC gamers. The lack of understanding of how PC gaming actually works is pretty evident on Magicbox.

[Edit] Furthermore, it's up to Microsoft to decide when they stop supporting the Xbox One and what happens to the games after that. It's an unknown at this moment with the worse case scenario being that games purchased on and for the Xbox One are playable only on the Xbox One until Microsoft's servers end. After that, they are lost for good. Does the possibility of Valve ending support for Steam exist? Absolutely. However Steam is not bound to the same structure of 'console generations' as Microsoft is. The idea of 'generations' do not exist on PC as they do for consoles.

And this is just me, but since Valve isn't a public company, I have some solace that they care more about consumer satisfaction than they do for their (non-existent) stock holders.

stroopwafel
06-11-2013, 05:52 PM
The lack of understanding of how PC gaming actually works is pretty evident on Magicbox.

Well you don't have to be a genious to understand the basic concept. I hate DRM. I severely dislike the hassle of PC gaming. End of story. That's why I prefer consoles. And obviously not when they start to resemble the worst traits of PC gaming like the xbone.

But come to think of it, I don't like to play games on PC which mostly run under winbloze and I don't like the xbone. All for the exact same reasons and why I always avoided m$ like the plague.

Ernst
06-11-2013, 05:56 PM
Playing games is supposed to be enjoyable. I get nothing but strain and stress from my attempts to play PC games. So I won't do it anymore. I might consider a Steambox in the future. But what I'd really like to see is an actual marketplace established for digital products. Wasn't there an EC ruling on this a while back?

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 06:01 PM
Well you don't have to be a genious to understand the basic concept. I hate DRM. I severely dislike the hassle of PC gaming. End of story. That's why I prefer consoles. And obviously not when they start to resemble the worst traits of PC gaming like the xbone.

But come to think of it, I don't like to play games on PC which mostly run under winbloze and I don't like the xbone. All for the exact same reasons and why I always avoided m$ like the plague.

*Genius

I'm not talking strictly about DRM. But whenever PC gaming is brought up, people tend to parade out the same old adages about PC gaming that are just not true. Adages such as that you are bound to a desk to play PC games, that a good PC costs thousands of dollars....those kinds of things.

PC Gaming is to console gaming as 'hot rodding' is to buying a car from a dealer. It's a hobbyist thing, there are obvious benefits to doing it. But to some, it's not worth the cost and investment because you can 'just play' games with a console without problems. Just like to some, OSX 'just works' whereas Windows customization and options can cause complications and problems. It's all up to you to decide what's best for you. It's your money and your hobby. Some people are happy with the subpar sound you get from a TV, some spend hundreds on a sound system for better quality audio with more options.

Playing games is supposed to be enjoyable. I get nothing but strain and stress from my attempts to play PC games. So I won't do it anymore.

Gaming is VERY enjoyable for me on PC. I've actually found myself enjoying gaming MORE since I switched from 360/PS3 to PC in 2009. Like...a lot more. I often buy games for a lot of my friends just because I'm in a good mood (or in the case of Spider Prime, because I lost a bet. Grrr...). But then again, I can understand the frustrations of trying to game on a Mac. Having a G4, I always found it frustrating and inconsistent when gaming on it. For whatever reasons, the ports were always subpar, especially by Aspyr. Macs just aren't built to play games as efficiently as a machine running Windows. Whenever a big title, like Warcraft 3, was announce for Mac I would get really giddy because I didn't have the same options as those with Windows.

Plus Macs cost way too much.

spider-prime
06-11-2013, 07:27 PM
MuAHhHAHAHAHAHA!

I still need the DLC to Dishonored :D Wink wink !

Drunken Savior
06-11-2013, 07:50 PM
How well do you think Man of Steel is gonna do? :D

spider-prime
06-11-2013, 08:00 PM
Hmmm. That's a tough one. comic book goers will see it no matter what. But people who saw Superman returns might be turned off by it even if it looks cool.

Reviews have been excellent for the most part. But that means shit.

But people just might hear Nolan and Zacky boy doing this one and might go see it on faith alone.

I can still see it making around 300 million over here alone. Jerry Seinfeld will probably be the reason it reaches that much.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 08:36 PM
I'm sure there's some give and take between the positivies and negatives between Steam and Microsoft's Xbox One, but I feel that overall, Steam's implementation of DRM benefits the consumer far better.

I'll give you that the ability to actually trade or give away a game on Microsoft is better than what Steam has. Though if I recall correctly, a game can only be given or sold once. I'd hope that a game that can't be resold/regifted would fetch significantly less than one that can. I wonder if people will take that into consideration when they go purchase a used game.

But now let's talk about buying digital games. Steam is one of many places PC gamers can go to buy games. Other options include Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Downloads/b/ref=sa_menu_dgs_gam?ie=UTF8&node=979455011), GreenManGaming (http://www.greenmangaming.com/), Gamefly (http://www.gamefly.com/download-games/), GoG (http://www.gog.com/) (Which has DRM free games, but a smaller collection and consists of mostly older games), and Gamestop (http://www.gamestop.com/pcgames). All of these places can sell games that use Steam DRM, and due to this competition, they generally have sales more often than brick and mortar stores do. This is part of the reason you hear PC gamers talking about the lower cost of software on PC gaming. For Microsoft's Xbox One, as far as we know, there isn't competition, it's all Microsoft's store. There is no incentive for Microsoft to discount games if they have no competition.

The reason I bring this up is because I sense that people here think PC gamers like DRM, which is not true. The sad part is that most of our PC gamers here have left the forums, leaving me and few others as the only active members on the forums who are primarily PC gamers. The lack of understanding of how PC gaming actually works is pretty evident on Magicbox.

[Edit] Furthermore, it's up to Microsoft to decide when they stop supporting the Xbox One and what happens to the games after that. It's an unknown at this moment with the worse case scenario being that games purchased on and for the Xbox One are playable only on the Xbox One until Microsoft's servers end. After that, they are lost for good. Does the possibility of Valve ending support for Steam exist? Absolutely. However Steam is not bound to the same structure of 'console generations' as Microsoft is. The idea of 'generations' do not exist on PC as they do for consoles.

And this is just me, but since Valve isn't a public company, I have some solace that they care more about consumer satisfaction than they do for their (non-existent) stock holders.

Games being sold or traded in to retail wouldn't have any limits unless the developer imposes them. However, the gifting of a game does appear to be limited to a one time deal should the developer allow it. I can understand that the limit wouldn't apply to trade in or resell as the developer could get money each time if they opted into a fee system with the retailer. Gifting on the other hand is a bit different. When you open up the ability for people to trade or gift games without limit to a digital system, you will likely drastically cut into sales.

With friends, most of you will play the game around the same time. Some will trade the game among several people over time, but most just pick up the game so they can all chat about it together. Factor in the online community, we could easily do game trading through forums, but the hassle of mailing and the trustworthiness of others may prevent some people from doing so. Open that up to Xbox Live users, you will have people trying to get you to gift them a game in return for another, which they never gift. Prevent that with a trade system, then suddenly it becomes so easy for a large mass of users to continually trade games around that it is very likely to cut into sales.

In short, the ease of trading digitally is the exact reason they limit digital gifting and trades, and I'm willing to bet it is the reason Steam doesn't support such a feature.

For competition, I think Microsoft could do some good. If they have a digital store that offers really strong deals, brick and mortar places will be encouraged to follow. Online retailers as well. And there is nothing to say that some places like Amazon won't have codes that they can sell to redeem games. They already do it with DLC on the current Xbox. So from a competition stand point, I feel like the stronger focus on digital distribution from Microsoft will help further competition, so long as they take the initiative to offer great deals. If they just keep the standard MSRP going, things won't really change on that front.

Icarus4578
06-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Kinect is Watching You

Nope. Microsoft was very clear, users have the freedom to completely shut down Kinect if they choose to do so. Some games may require Kinect, which would need to be turned on by the user. But you can always turn it off when you are done. You won't get the nifty "Xbox On" command to start things up, but you can have peace of mind knowing that Kinect isn't listening in the background waiting to hear the words, "Xbox On."

After explaining these policies, Microsoft explained that "as we move into this new generation of games and entertainment, from time to time, Microsoft may change its policies, terms, products and services to reflect modifications and improvements to our services, feedback from customers and our business partners or changes in our business priorities and business models or for other reasons. We may also cease to offer certain services or products for similar reasons."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/06/microsoft-details-xbox-one-used-games-always-online

IOW, their policies are subject to change at a moment's notice. Until the system is in people's possession and someone with the technical know-how can monitor and analyze the Kinect to observe what it's doing, there's no way of knowing.

IoriYagami n8
06-11-2013, 10:30 PM
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/06/microsoft-details-xbox-one-used-games-always-online

IOW, their policies are subject to change at a moment's notice. Until the system is in people's possession and someone with the technical know-how can monitor and analyze the Kinect to observe what it's doing, there's no way of knowing.

Well, all policies are subject to change. The PS4 could do a firmware update that institutes a new DRM policy a year after release. All we can do at the moment is take them for their word, and right now Microsoft has been very clear that users will be able to control a wide assortment of Kinect features including turning on or off what they choose.

Honestly, if Microsoft was interested in collecting data on me. Kinect wouldn't be the way to do it. I spend far more time on Microsoft OS powered computers than I do in front of my Xbox, and there are a very large number of ways that Microsoft could gather data on me and millions of other people rather easily through the every day use of a PC.

I find it funny how much people seem to think Microsoft is out to get them, to limit their freedoms. Truth is, Microsoft doesn't have the history when it comes to those kinds of things. Most of us are running Windows OS because traditionally Microsoft has been a company that is more open with their users.

Ernst
06-11-2013, 10:33 PM
I find it funny how much people seem to think Microsoft is out to get them, to limit their freedoms. Truth is, Microsoft doesn't have the history when it comes to those kinds of things. Most of us are running Windows OS because traditionally Microsoft has been a company that is more open with their users.

Sorry, but you seem to be somewhat ignorant of the history of Windows. Microsoft monopolised the market. Add that to the fact that Microsoft was the very first company to voluntarily sign up PRISM, and myriad examples of anticompetitiveness suggests to me that they are not a company for consumers. Even the most devout X Bot can surely see that now.

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 02:34 AM
No company really wants competition, the problem is Microsoft had the money and will to put it into practice. In the end the government should have put a stop to it before that happened. They try now and in Europe but it's a little late and because MS have so much money they just ignore it and take the fines.

I couldn't find anything about MS signing up to the Governments PRISM crap you got a link about that from a good source.

calintz
06-12-2013, 02:47 AM
5yC8FbgGnd0

Ernst
06-12-2013, 02:59 AM
LOLOLOL. What an arrogant fucking asshole.

Ernst
06-12-2013, 03:00 AM
No company really wants competition, the problem is Microsoft had the money and will to put it into practice. In the end the government should have put a stop to it before that happened. They try now and in Europe but it's a little late and because MS have so much money they just ignore it and take the fines.

I couldn't find anything about MS signing up to the Governments PRISM crap you got a link about that from a good source.

Dunno how you could have missed this. From the NSA itself:

http://twimages.vr-zone.net/2013/06/prism-slide-5.jpg

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 03:12 AM
LOLOLOL. What an arrogant fucking asshole.

I actually thought that was surprising honest answer and I liked how he didn't skip around the question without answering it. I can see developers making games for the PS3 and XB360 are quite sometime in the future tbh. So there isn't any worry there and it's pretty obvious the XBONE isn't the console for you if you haven't got a internet connection he was hardly going to say the PS4.

As for the PRISM thing, MS may have been the first but it looks like everyone is pretty much signed up to it according to that. So it doesn't really matter and Google and Facebook have already denied it. So who knows... i'm not in the know....

Ernst
06-12-2013, 03:22 AM
They're legally allowed to lie through their teeth. Rachel Maddow was incisive on this: if it's involuntary, why aren't they tapping Twitter? Twitter clearly refused. Apple only signed up after Jobs died.

Sulblazer
06-12-2013, 04:06 AM
Well, to be fair...it's legality will be challenged soon. Two lawsuits have been filed against the NSA regarding the constitutionality of PRISM. The ACLU lost a previous case against the NSA 5-4 due to a lack of evidence...but now that the info leak is out...it may swing the other way...and I hope it does. Though...still makes me wonder what kind of other shady shit they got goin' on in the name of national security.

Ernst
06-12-2013, 05:08 AM
Well, to be fair...it's legality will be challenged soon. Two lawsuits have been filed against the NSA regarding the constitutionality of PRISM. The ACLU lost a previous case against the NSA 5-4 due to a lack of evidence...but now that the info leak is out...it may swing the other way...and I hope it does. Though...still makes me wonder what kind of other shady shit they got goin' on in the name of national security.

Agreed. But it deeply concerns, and stuns, me that the majority of the American public polled in favour of all of this.

Icarus4578
06-12-2013, 07:41 AM
Which poll is this? You should know by now that the mainstream media manufactures its poll figures to reflect what they want Americans to believe. We didn't even know about this unconstitutional PRISM crap until it was leaked to UK journalists.

Icarus4578
06-12-2013, 12:06 PM
But in a later interview with Gametrailers, Tretton’s message is slightly different. It now sounds like it will only be first party games published by Sony that won’t put any limitations on trading games, and that third party companies like EA and Ubisoft will be able to put in place measures to stop used games if they so desire.

“Well, I mean, we create the platform, we’ve certainly stated that our first-party games are not going to be doing that, but we welcome publishers and their business models to our platform,” he told Gametrailers. “There’s gonna be free-to-play, there’s gonna be every potential business model on there, and again, that’s up to their relationship with the consumer, what do they think is going to put them in the best fit. We’re not going to dictate that, we’re gonna give them a platform to publish on.”

“The DRM decision is going to have to be answered by the third parties, it’s not something we’re going to control, or dictate, or mandate, or implement,” stated Tretton.

http://www.macgasm.net/2013/06/11/ps4-might-not-actually-be-so-kind-to-used-games-jack-tretton-clarifies/

Seems that Sony is pulling the wool over people's eyes after all.

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 12:18 PM
EA have already gone on record as saying they have no problem with the current state of used games in the last couple of days. Peter Moore said the same thing in a interview with Gametrailers.

Einhander
06-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Peter Moore is a lying piece of shit that deserves to be drawn and quartered.

Paper exe
06-12-2013, 12:26 PM
And I say he is lying. I am pretty sure he then going to say "we just said we did not ask for DRM, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't use it!!1!"

I am actually looking forward to see wither EA will keep their promise. :D

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 12:28 PM
Man, you guys are to serious. I get a headache just from reading your posts.

http://www.macgasm.net/2013/06/11/ps4-might-not-actually-be-so-kind-to-used-games-jack-tretton-clarifies/

Seems that Sony is pulling the wool over people's eyes after all.

He was only talking about the online parts of the game like the multiplayer same as with the PS3. No difference the offline sections will be the same.

There's been some clarification over your exact policy from Jack today. We understand that third party publishers can still opt to implement some kind of online restriction on pre-owned games?

What he talked about is with the offline portion there's no difference from PS3 in that every game is playable on PS4. In terms of just getting access of multiplayer online, it's now taken care of at a platform level by PS Plus. So our first party titles had the online pass on PS3 and Vita. That we are not doing on PS4 because of that platform level. It's the same for third parties; when it comes to just giving you access to online multiplayer, it's PS Plus going forward.

There are lots of different reasons. One is that publishers are providing the network services. The simplest example is an MMO; you have a huge community and your constantly adding content... It's an online service. It doesn't make sense that a disc gives you access to all of the online service forever, right?

Another example is games that have content DLC included in a season pass. Outside of just giving access to multiplayer, it's at publishers' discretion to come up with a new business model and offer to consumers.

But that's limited to just the online aspect?

Yes.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/413102/interviews/the-ps4-interview-shuhei-yoshida/
seems like there really going for the US/European markets this time around.

progmetal
06-12-2013, 01:19 PM
Yeah it's just the same as with the PS3. Nothing has changed, except for Plus needed to play online.

I saw the Xbox One & the PS4 going for the same low price at a Norwegian web shop today. Was VERY tempted to preorder both consoles.

Ernst
06-12-2013, 02:40 PM
Yeah it's just the same as with the PS3. Nothing has changed, except for Plus needed to play online.

I saw the Xbox One & the PS4 going for the same low price at a Norwegian web shop today. Was VERY tempted to preorder both consoles.

Link?

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 02:49 PM
Do you mean about the pay to play online?

progmetal
06-12-2013, 02:59 PM
Yeah, the pay to play online.

The PS4: 3699 Kroner (https://www.coolshop.com/no/catalog?term=ps4)

XBone: 3999 Kroner (https://www.coolshop.com/no/catalog/product/80869-xbox_one_console_xbox_one)

A small difference here, but the normal price is 3999 for ps4 and 4999 for xboxone.

Escaflowne2001
06-12-2013, 03:09 PM
XBOX One = £449
PS4 = £408

Normal XBONE price = £552, LOL Ouch that would hurt.

IoriYagami n8
06-12-2013, 05:40 PM
Man, you guys are to serious. I get a headache just from reading your posts.



He was only talking about the online parts of the game like the multiplayer same as with the PS3. No difference the offline sections will be the same.



http://www.computerandvideogames.com/413102/interviews/the-ps4-interview-shuhei-yoshida/
seems like there really going for the US/European markets this time around.

That seems very confusing. He seems to be saying that online passes were put in place because PSN has some kind of network issue and that with the updated PS Plus that they aren't an issue. Online passes were not unique to PSN, they were used on all platforms and for one purpose, to limit the function of a game that was purchase used, thus causing you to spend an extra 5-10 bucks to get online.

It sounds like he is trying to spin it so that it doesn't sound like users will have to deal with used game issues like online passes, while not directly saying so. On the other hand, Jack's explanation sounded pretty spot on. The PS4 will handle used games the same way the PS3 does. Sony will not have any method of online pass or other type of required DLC/Code to enable game features, but they aren't going to tell third parties that they aren't allowed to.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

calintz
06-12-2013, 06:49 PM
http://abload.de/img/xbonereqqdj.png

Paper exe
06-12-2013, 09:09 PM
Man, you guys are to serious. I get a headache just from reading your posts.





That's funny I like and agree on must of what you say. I wonder how many headaches have you caused! :P

IoriYagami n8
06-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Microsoft has clarified some aspects of the sharing features. You can specify 10 people to share your library with. The games can be played at any time by any of the 10 people you add. However, no two people may play the same game at the same time.

They didn't clarify if you can specify which games are shared or if they are all shared automatically. Nor did they mention how you would add or remove people from your shared list. As long as they allow you to specify which games are shared, I think this is a really cool feature and I would use it a ton. I could keep a new release or a game I play often as private, but other games that I've finished and don't really play often, I would share for my friends to play.

progmetal
06-13-2013, 07:02 PM
I guess this sharing is behind xbox live Gold?

How will devs like this, as they wasn't that found of the sharing of games on the Ps3.

IoriYagami n8
06-14-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm sure you will need Gold, that's always been Microsoft's style. Right now the confusion seems to be in who can play what. They say that shared games can only be played by one "family member" at a time. But that don't say you can't still play if they are. So some people are wondering if that means you can play a game multiplayer that your friend doesn't have, and share with them to get them in on the action. It seems unlikely, but if true that's pretty sweet.

They say an MS Engineer was on /b/ talking about the ideas behind the Xbox One and Microsoft's ultimate goals. There are some things he admits are kind of dumb and suspects will be changed, and others that he is able to seemingly provide a little insight in where Microsoft is trying to go with their new console. It was a pretty good read, and if this guy is legit, I can certainly see where Microsoft is coming from. Steam has been a huge success on the PC, despite back when it launched it had people up in flames just like the Xbox One does now. If Microsoft really is trying to make a console Steam and wants to get to the point where they can have insane sales and such, I'm all for it.

>The thing is we suck at telling the story. The whole point of the DRM switch from disc based to cloud based is to kill disc swapping, scratched discs, bringing discs to friends house, trade-ins for shit value with nothign going back to developers, and high game costs. If you want games cheaper then 59.99, you have to limit used games somehow. Steam's model requires a limited used game model.

>The thing is, the DRM is really really similar to steam... You can login anywhere and play your games, anyone in your house can play with the family xbox. The only diff is steam you have to sign in before playing, and Xbox does it automatically at night for you (once per 24 hours)

>It's a long tail strategy, just like steam. Steam had it's growing pains at the beginning with all it's drm shit as well. [...] For digital downloads steam had no real competition at the time, they were competing against boxed sales. At the time people were pretty irate about steam, (on 4chan too...) It was only once they had a digital marketplace with DRM that was locked down to prevent sharing that they could do super discounted shit.

>Think about it, on steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, 5$-30$. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more. [...] If we say "Hey publishers, you limit game to 39.99, we ensure every license transfer you get 10$, gamestop gets 20$" that is a decent model... Microsoft gets a license fee on first and subsequent game purchases, compared to just first now? That's a revenue increase.

>Competition is the best man, it helps drive both to new heights. See technology from the Cold War. If we had no USSR, we'd be way worse off today. TLDR: Bring it on Steam :)

2/4

>Yeah we passed that around the office at Xbox. Most of us were like "Well played Sony, Well played". That being said they are just riding the hype train of ZOMG THEY ARE TRYING TO FUCK US FOR NO REASON. Without actually thinking about how convienent it would be for the majority of the time to not find that disc your brother didn't put back... [...] just simpleminded people not seeing the bigger picture. Some PS4 viral team made them all "U TOOK R DISCS" and they hiveminded.

>Everyone and their mother complains about how gamestop fucks them on their trade ins, getting 5$ for their used games. We come in trying to find a way to take money out of gamestop, and put some in developers and get you possibly cheaper games and everyone bitches at MS. Well, if you want the @#$@ing from Gamestop, go play PS4.

>The goal is to move to digital downloads, but Gamestop, Walmart, Target, Amazon are KIND OF FUCKING ENTRENCHED in the industry. They have a lot of power, and the shift has to be gradual. Long term goal is steam for consoles. [...] If you always want to stay with what you have, then keep current consoles, or a PS4. We're TRYING to move the industry forwards towards digital distribution... it'sa bumpy road

>Publishers have enourmous power. Microsoft is trying to balance between consumer delight, and publisher wishes. If we cave to far in either direction you have a non-starting product. WiiU goes too far to consumer, you have no 3rd party support to shake a stick at. PS4 is status-quo. XB1 is trying to push some things, at the expense of others. We have a vision, we'll see if it works in the coming years

>Living room transformation. We want to own the living room. Every living room TV with an XBox on input one. It's the thing that gives the signal to your TV, everything is secondary. The future, where games, TV, internet telephony, all that shit happens magically on some huge ass screen with hand / voice gestures... That's our goal.


3/4

>Google TV + PS4 + Minority report level gestures, that combined with a sick second screen experience (which is really hot for TV, I know I know.. tv tv tv tv tv... but it's fucking sick when you have it). Games will be the same, there are more exclusives to MS then PS atm, and Kinect 2 makes Kinect 1 look like a childs toy.

>By default it's on, listening for "Xbox On". You can turn it off tho, and turn the console like OFF off. OFF off is required for Germany / other countries that require it (no vampire appliances) [...] It has to be plugged in for the console to post. You can turn off everything it does from the settings. Think of it like airplane mode for the iPhone. You can't just unplug the cellular radio, but you can turn it off.

>Instead of 10mins, is 24hrs for your console, and 1 or 2 at a friends house. Really the majority of people have a speck of internet at least once a day. And if you don't. Don't buy an Xbox 1. Just like if you didn't have a broadband connection don't get Live, and if you don't have an HDTV the 360 isn't that great for you either. New tech, new req. This allows us to do cool shit when we can assume things like you have a kinect, you have internet, etc.

>Current plan is basically you're fucked after 24 hours. Yeah... I know. Kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revist the time period and / or find a diff way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to gamestop or something... but there is no plan YET. I'm hoping the change it, but I don't work on that so I don't have much influence there /sigh

>If the power goes out you ain't playing shit. I'm assuming you mean the internet goes out but you have power for TV and Xbox. Yes, You're fucked for single player games. Again, that's the PoR (Plan of record), but I expect it to change after the e3 clusterfuck

>What fee? There is no fee to play your games at your friends house. Never has, never will. Even x360 digital downloads could do that.


4/4

>The cloud capabilities is the shit they like the most. We basically made a huge cloud compute shit and made it free. What people are doing with it is kind of cool. THe original intention was to get all the Multiplayer servers not requiring 3rd party costs (Like EA shutting down game servers to cut costs), as well as taking all the games that servers hosted by the clients (Halo, etc), and have all that compute done in the cloud allowing more CPU cycles for gameplay. That will really expand what developers can do. Anything that doesn't need per frame calculation and can handle 100ms delays can be shifted to the cloud. That's huge.

>SmartGlass + IE is going to be pretty freaking sweet. 1 finger cursor, 2 finger direct manip. Basically if you think of a laptop trackpad where your phone/ slate is the trackpad and the monitor is your TV... it's that. The tech is there, just needs to be applied. There is some really cool shit going on with Petra + controllers that pairs people with controllers. So if person with controller two trades controlers with controller 1, their profiles magically switch. It's sick. What does this matter? Now if you lean left/right it knows which person is leaning, even if 4 people are all int he same room. It's awesome.

>New service using Azure for cloud compute. Allows developers to not use clients for hosting multiplayer servers, or other tasks that do not require per frame calcuations. It's pretty sweet.

>Honestly, if you care about anything other then pure games AT ALL. Xbox 1 > PS4. If all you do is play games, and nothing else, PS4.

This was all from the Microsoft engineer that was on /b/ last night.

>It's not worth my time to prove it, or risk my Job. I work in Studio A, 40th ave in Redmond, Wa. The thai place in the studio cafeteria has double punch wednesdays. Go ahead and call them and verify if you want.

Nem
06-14-2013, 11:10 AM
http://abload.de/img/xbonereqqdj.png

Microsoft people on their usual arrogant selves...

Or... Or... and i know im going on a tangent here... Or... they could pehaps get a PS4 instead? Did the idea cross the mind? Nope, of course it didnt. Blindness is the regular state on Microsoft land.

Actually my native country isnt getting the console at launch. I dont think anyone there cares as the Playstation was always bigger. Even in this gen. This just totally shuts them off though. Is Microsoft serious? This launch is gonna be disastrous.

Rubeus
06-14-2013, 11:39 AM
The Xbox One could become a tool the NSA use to monitor your living room, scary :)


Edward Snowden told the Washington Post last week that he leaked the National Security Agency’s top secret surveillance programs in part because he feared the Internet becoming “a TV that watches you.”

What to make, then, of an Internet-connected household computer that requires users to install a futuristic microphone and camera able to track their movement—and even heart rate and mood—in pitch black?

The device in question is Microsoft’s Xbox One, the much anticipated gaming console hitting the market this holiday season. And while its features promise an unprecedented level of interactivity for gaming, they’re fueling concerns among gamers that they could be used to spy on the family living room.

“[I] know we’re getting into the realm of paranoia here, but the Kinect sensor’s capabilities always spooked me a bit and learning about the NSA’s spying practices has just pushed me over the edge on this issue,” Brad Reed, news editor at tech site BGR.com, wrote in a post last week explaining why he won’t buy an Xbox One.

Those complaints were gentle compared to Chris Miles, an editor at millennial discussion site Policy Mic who described it as “an ‘always-on’ Xbox tracking you with the Kinect ‘eye,’ beaming info back to some Microsoft cloud [center] which, as we now know, is tapped by the government” and dubbed the machine “the future of PRISM.”

Source (http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/13/gamers-fear-microsofts-xbox-one-could-be-future-of-prism-after-nsa-revelations/)

Icarus4578
06-14-2013, 11:49 AM
Microsoft was the first company (that we know of) to go along with the NSA's unconstitutional PRISM program to spy on people with Skype. Kinect would be no different: it's a camera and mic positioned to monitor you in your home. Microsoft would comply with a FISA order to retrieve data from the Xbox One. Consider: in the past 12 years, FISA has rejected just one request. It doesn't bode well.

Dj Jimmi Zero
06-14-2013, 12:24 PM
Microsoft and anyone that believes in the future of the Xbox brand can say whatever they want, the DRM for the PC and even the 360 is better and more consumer friendly than the XB1. Steam doesn't need to log in at least once to run your games either, if there is no internet connection, most of your games are still playable. Games for Windows titles are useless without a connection, and we don't pay money for multiplayer functionality unless it's a pay to play MMO. There is no way to even compare Steam to the XB1, Origin is much closer to the XB1's DRM if anything.

Escaflowne2001
06-14-2013, 04:06 PM
Microsoft was the first company (that we know of) to go along with the NSA's unconstitutional PRISM program to spy on people with Skype. Kinect would be no different: it's a camera and mic positioned to monitor you in your home. Microsoft would comply with a FISA order to retrieve data from the Xbox One. Consider: in the past 12 years, FISA has rejected just one request. It doesn't bode well.

What are you doing exactly that you are scared of them hearing and seeing? IF and I say IF they even would.

I'm fairly confident Microsoft would soon get tried of watching me playing the Xbox One. Wearing the bare minimum on a hot summers day.

Paper exe
06-14-2013, 04:39 PM
soooo no hentai games for xbox one? are they even trying to win japan?

Icarus4578
06-14-2013, 06:58 PM
What are you doing exactly that you are scared of them hearing and seeing? IF and I say IF they even would.

Excuse me but are you really going to sit there and defend warrantless government surveillance via a false dichotomy? You're equating the desire for privacy to wrong-doing. Truly pathetic to watch people like you parrot around the same bogus arguments as an invasive government.

Escaflowne2001
06-14-2013, 07:06 PM
To be honest I'm just humoring you because I don't actually think for one minute there going to be taking any pictures of anything whatsoever.

Joe Redifer
06-14-2013, 07:49 PM
Here's what I want clarified:

-Can I keep (and play) the games I buy forever?
-Do I NEED Xbox Live Gold?
-Can I record video from the HDMI outputs for my silly web show? (I'm betting "no")

I'm fine with the sharing thing. It's just like a real game meaning no two users can play it as the same time. I think the way around this is simple without so much online bullshit: Embed the DRM into each individual copy the game. Game is tied to your account. No need to check online if the system is booted up to your account. Lend a game to anyone, account information changes in your copy that says someone else has the game, fuck you, you can't play it until they "give back" (or you "take back" since you are the owner) the game. That would require some online shenanigans but nothing invasive or unreasonable. Sales could also be done this way. As long as the original game was bought, you could "give" the game permanently to anyone. Both players would have to confirm this over Xbox Live Silver (or hell, even Bronze). Once that's done, new player has the game which can be played on his account FOREVER. Unless he gives or sells it again for a price the user decides. Original purchaser can't play the game any more unless he buys it again. Money is transferred through Paypal or cash in person, whatevs. Damn, I even amaze myself with such great ideas. Someone give me a raise. NO NOT THAT KIND OF RAISE!!!

Einhander
06-14-2013, 09:38 PM
the DRM for the PC and even the 360 is better and more consumer friendly than the XB1.

Steam doesn't need to log in at least once to run your games either, if there is no internet connection, most of your games are still playable .

There is no way to even compare Steam to the XB1, Origin is much closer to the XB1's DRM if anything.

You just compared them. There really isn't a huge difference.

If there are games that will not work offline, then Steam is no better.

Drunken Savior
06-14-2013, 09:52 PM
Steam has an offline mode. If you save your login/password to your machine (bolded because people forget to do this all the time and then whine when offline mode doesn't work), when you log onto Steam without an active internet connection, it asks if you'd like to login to Offline Mode. Obviously you won't get system updates, your cloud saves won't get updated (local ones will, so no problem), and achievements won't be counted. But you can play games.

Awhile ago, there was a rumor that Steam's offline mode only lasts for two weeks. The evidence was purely anecdotal. I have anecdotal evidence too. While I was at Bryce Canyon National Park from June - August 2011, I was able to play Steam games without any problems.

Paper exe
06-16-2013, 02:00 AM
http://kotaku.com/microsoft-we-wont-render-your-xbox-one-games-unplayab-513602148
:D
Yes! they'll probabaly and are planning to remove DRM in the future when the server is shut. That's all i wantted to hear. Guess it is not as bad as I thought. :smile2::smile2::smile2:

I am happy and can sleep now.


The argument is over guys Xbox One is fine no more ha8ing. move along!

PS: I'll buy the PS4 version just to be in the safe side BUT definitely will get the system now for the exclusives.

Drunken Savior
06-16-2013, 02:04 AM
He didn't pinky swear on it, Paper. He's lying, I can't believe you, of all people, fell for it. You need to be less gullible.

Escaflowne2001
06-16-2013, 03:51 AM
In other news the sky is blue.

Paper exe
06-16-2013, 05:02 AM
He didn't pinky swear on it, Paper. He's lying, I can't believe you, of all people, fell for it. You need to be less gullible.

ohh I just try to be positive I don't want to miss a whole console. :*(


Just heard that even if they remove it disk games going to be locked to a system much like digital content at lest that what micrososft did before in their MSN music DRM. Many people say it shouldn't be trusted and some say if they really going to do it why doge the question why no clear answer or promises?


Why do they complicate things? Why not just make a clear simple promise to clear all of these fuse?

EDIT: now come to think of it they really did no solve the issue now back to rage mode against x1 thanks a lot DS. hope you are happy now!

stroopwafel
06-16-2013, 01:49 PM
http://kotaku.com/microsoft-we-wont-render-your-xbox-one-games-unplayab-513602148


Damn that redhead interviewer looks hot. jesus.

Badrats Studio
06-16-2013, 02:08 PM
http://kotaku.com/microsoft-we-wont-render-your-xbox-one-games-unplayab-513602148


Damn that redhead interviewer looks hot. jesus.

You can use "chloe dykstra" with safesearch off in google. Your welcome.

Here's what I want clarified:

-Can I keep (and play) the games I buy forever?
-Do I NEED Xbox Live Gold?
-Can I record video from the HDMI outputs for my silly web show? (I'm betting "no")


- "Forever" is about 10 years ; according to MS
- Judging from their previous policies with Xbox 360, it's an easy guess.
- I don't even know its got one

Someone give me a raise. NO NOT THAT KIND OF RAISE!!!

Paper, stahp. You scared Joe.

spider-prime
06-16-2013, 09:59 PM
Hmmmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Should I buy the DRM infested Xbox one that is also more expensive or the cheaper less DRM infested PS4(of course some games will have it with online passes or something like that)? That will get almost the same games for it? Hard choice. If I liked to get butt raped in a prison shower when I drop the soap, I think I would get a Xbox one, I guess I'm better off with the PS4 for now.

Now for the next question, is it hard to hold onto the soap or am I just dropping it on purpose?

Pikachief
06-16-2013, 11:42 PM
-Do I NEED Xbox Live Gold?


I'd wouldn't know why. Xbox Silver is able to connect online for system checks.

The "Major Nelson" or whatever he calls himself is apparently finding a definite answer to the forever question.

IoriYagami n8
06-17-2013, 09:58 AM
Yeah, Major Nelson is a pretty stand up guy. Microsoft should put him front and center. He's a PR guy, but is far more direct and to the point than most, and it is very appreciated.

The biggest reason I see the Xbox One as requiring an online check in is for the transfer of games. Since you are allowed to give games and sell them to retail, the system has to check in to make sure you still have the license and if not disable your cloud access to that title. Otherwise you could easily have people buying games, installing them, and then selling them back and just never taking the console online.

Rubeus
06-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Microsoft should ask this Xbox boss Don Mattrick to shut up, he's just making things worst, as he suggests that Microsoft should've charged you thousands of dollars for Xbox One, $499 is "over-delivering value". :lol:

Microsoft's Xbox boss Don Mattrick has spoken out to defend the Xbox One's $500 price point, saying the company is in fact over-delivering value with the next-generation system.

"It's a lower number than some of the analysts had forecasted," Mattrick said on Bloomberg TV. "We're over-delivering value against other choices I think consumers can get. Any modern product these days you look at it [and] $499 isn't a ridiculous price point. We're delivering thousands of dollars of value to people, so I think they're going to love it when they use it."

Competitor Sony will offer its PlayStation 4 at $400 this holiday season, but Mattrick believes consumers will choose Xbox One for its suite of exclusive services and applications like an improved Xbox Live, as well as Skype, Twitch TV, SmartGlass, and Kinect.

"We're really making the living room your center of fun for your family," Mattrick said.

Source (http://www.bloomberg.com/video/microsoft-s-mattrick-defends-xbox-one-s-499-price-52RTVFjnS9GcONHjO852Xg.html)

Ernst
06-17-2013, 01:07 PM
Hahaha. Thousands of dollars worth! What a guy!

Seriously, how do these arseholes get to these positions?

Escaflowne2001
06-17-2013, 01:12 PM
Since the PS3 was $600 at release last generation. Both the PS4 and XBONE seem like pretty good value tbh.

Ernst
06-17-2013, 01:18 PM
Why? Do people say Apple are giving great value because the iPhone 5 is the same price as the original iPhone when it was launched? Of course not, times move on.

Escaflowne2001
06-17-2013, 01:30 PM
Well since I knew about 80% I was most likely going to end getting both straight away. To see them both cheaper this time around makes me happy and makes me feel like I'm getting value for money since both machines will last me for like 10+ years. Unless something disasterous happens.

Rubeus
06-17-2013, 02:56 PM
At this point I wouldn't be surprised that Microsoft suddenly announce all these DRM, always connect, used game policy craps are removed from XBOX ONE, it will behave exactly the same as the PS4.

stroopwafel
06-17-2013, 03:02 PM
Another things is even if you support all that DRM/always online crap, the whole system and the way it authenticates/verifies sound really technically complicated. Anyone genuinely believes m$ can make this run smoothly? Even if it all sounds good on paper (from their perspective) they have an awful history in that regard. Just take the most recent example windows 8. Its a fucking mess.

Escaflowne2001
06-17-2013, 03:20 PM
Just take the most recent example windows 8. Its a fucking mess.

So why do you hate windows 8, in your experience? I've been using Windows 8 for about 4 months now since I got my new laptop. Apart from the start menu being different (and even then not majorly), I haven't really noticed any big changes. It sure does load up quicker when I switch my laptop on though.

Joe Redifer
06-17-2013, 04:21 PM
Who is Major Nelson and is he a real major? I was pretty disappointed to find out that Captain Crunch is actually a commander and not a real captain. If I find out that Major Nelson is, in fact, only a captain I will be ultra-pissed.

- I don't even know its got [an HDMI port]
It does. In fact it ONLY has an HDMI port. No analog video at all. Same with the PS4 as far as I know.

Drunken Savior
06-17-2013, 04:43 PM
At this point I wouldn't be surprised that Microsoft suddenly announce all these DRM, always connect, used game policy craps are removed from XBOX ONE, it will behave exactly the same as the PS4.

I would. They want the added control over the used market, and no doubt that many publishers are in favor of it, since it benefits them. Let's remember that Sony has repeatedly said that the publishers can put DRM on the PS4 if they chose to, but Sony won't be the police. Nothing is set in stone yet, but don't think that the choice between the One and the PS4 will be as clear as day as some tend to think it is now. Sony is just enjoying the free press and Microsoft is engaging in really shoddy PR work right now.

The 24-hour check in is probably very likely to change. Valve (Steam), Adobe (Creative Cloud), and even Microsoft (Office 365) themselves offer cloud programs and gaming that far exceed 24 hours.

stroopwafel
06-17-2013, 06:00 PM
So why do you hate windows 8, in your experience? I've been using Windows 8 for about 4 months now since I got my new laptop. Apart from the start menu being different (and even then not majorly), I haven't really noticed any big changes. It sure does load up quicker when I switch my laptop on though.

I use my laptop for work and I had driver issues, programs crashing and the tablet interface is just a chore. Mind everything worked (mostly) fine with windows 7. I know Apple makes ms shit their pants but they forgot a laptop isn't a tablet and doesn't need tiles and 'apps', it just makes everything unnecessary complicated and an absolute chore to navigate. Its just a cluttered mess compared to the traditional interface, which seems perpetually stuck in beta phase as well.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but don't think that the choice between the One and the PS4 will be as clear as day as some tend to think it is now. Sony is just enjoying the free press and Microsoft is engaging in really shoddy PR work right now.



Well the difference is clear as day. DRM is part of the xbone's architecture opposed to the PS4 that leaves it to the publisher. Now ofcourse that won't change the status-quo of activation passes for online multiplayer but single-player games can still be played offline, traded at used game stores and won't need to be installed and registered to the user's account. Huge difference compared to the forced DRM of the xbone that applies it to the entire game(even when its irrelevant like with single-player) instead of just the online multiplayer part. Worse, for the xbone its actually a system requirement even if the publisher wouldn't want it.

I also find it somewhat silly how people continue to make excuses for m$ how they didn't meant all that stuff about DRM and always online and how they will reverse their official statement to appease the internet. Yeah right.

Drunken Savior
06-17-2013, 06:08 PM
I haven't kept up with W8 since it was released, but for those who don't have a touch monitor, is there a way to make metro and other 'touch features' more efficient with a mouse?

Badrats Studio
06-18-2013, 01:30 PM
Who is Major Nelson and is he a real major? I was pretty disappointed to find out that Captain Crunch is actually a commander and not a real captain. If I find out that Major Nelson is, in fact, only a captain I will be ultra-pissed.


It does. In fact it ONLY has an HDMI port. No analog video at all. Same with the PS4 as far as I know.

I thought it's a HDMI port for input. Can you record from it ? No need for output slot for video recording ? (I know nothing about video stuff so you have to understand on how noob my question is)

progmetal
06-18-2013, 01:55 PM
The XBONE have 2 HDMI contacts. One for input & one for output. I guess the one for input is for TV signals and alike.