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View Full Version : Dispelling the "PS2 Demos were Fake" Myth


Seska
05-21-2005, 07:52 AM
I've been reading a lot of skepticism about the current new E3 demos that were shown for PS3. "Remeber last time Sony lied to us?" I keep on reading. Well, its time to end the myth once and for all, look at the demos yourself:

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_4.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_5.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_6.mpg

If you look at footage from the Tekken demo, the FFVIII demo, hell ANY game demo, you can CLEARLY see that all those demos in time have been TOPPED by the PS2. GT even turned out looking a lot better than what was shown in the demo. Cutscenes with the likes of that FF ballroom scene and the Reiko Nagase demo have since been topped by games like Silent Hill 3, FFX, MGS2 and MGS3. Heck, theres even that crappy Atlus Primal Image game that was released early in the PS2's life, and that came close to the quality of the Reiko scene.

People at the time were mostly upset, I believe, because we did not see that kind of quality immediately and in all games. But as somoene in some other thread already mentioned, The Bouncer, Type S and Tekken Tag (despite all three of them being crap games) demonstrated that the PS2 did live up to the hype generated by the tech demos.

I really dont think anybody can look at those videos and say, in hindsight of the PS2's lifetime, that they were not representative of what the PS2 delivered. If anything, they were an understatement, as we have seen much better since then on the PS2.

Alucard
05-21-2005, 08:09 AM
Sony whore Sony whore!!!

All clips show a stark lack of jaggies. Something even the glorious GT4 still has. These are also clips with boundaries, so full power can be shown. Stuff like Killzone has crap happening everywhere with every character moving differently, and some god like smoke effects and no jaggies anywhere without any slowdown. Unless this system is gonna cost $3000 to produce, I am not expecting to see lushness like that.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:21 AM
I saw video of Soul Calibur 3 and still think that the FFVIII demo outclasses it. So what about the jaggies? Thos videos are small and suck ass. I used to have the videos big, crystal clear, and I remember them perfectly.

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:22 AM
All clips show a stark lack of jaggies. Something even the glorious GT4 still has.

No Aliasing, eh?

http://img264.echo.cx/img264/7679/14pg.jpg
http://img264.echo.cx/img264/6917/26wl.jpg
http://img264.echo.cx/img264/8805/33wd.jpg

I see plenty of aliasing going on all over the place. I think you need to buy new glasses! :D

These are also clips with boundaries, so full power can be shown.

Guess thats why games like Tekken 4, which has no boundaries, looks better than Tekken Tag. Guess thats why God of War, which has an amazing draw distance, looks so crappy.

Stuff like Killzone has crap happening everywhere with every character moving differently, and some god like smoke effects and no jaggies anywhere without any slowdown.

That's why its running on a PS3, and not a PS2. :haha:

The fact remains, the PS2 in its lifetime has outdone what was shown on those clips, and nothing will change that fact.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:23 AM
If you look at footage from the Tekken demo, the FFVIII demo, hell ANY game demo, you can CLEARLY see that all those demos in time have been TOPPED by the PS2. GT even turned out looking a lot better than what was shown in the demo. Cutscenes with the likes of that FF ballroom scene and the Reiko Nagase demo have since been topped by games like Silent Hill 3, FFX, MGS2 and MGS3. Heck, theres even that crappy Atlus Primal Image game that was released early in the PS2's life, and that came close to the quality of the Reiko scene.

What's with your pro-Sony brainwashing kick, Seska? I don't know what you're trying to prove but the PS2 cannot produce those visuals. If you believe they can, why not ask Square to reproduce that demo except this time make it run in real-time on the PS2? Same goes for Namco and those Tekken/Reiko videos.

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:27 AM
I saw video of Soul Calibur 3 and still think that the FFVIII demo outclasses it. So what about the jaggies? Thos videos are small and suck ass. I used to have the videos big, crystal clear, and I remember them perfectly.

If you run a frame-by-frame of the FFVIII demo, you will see it was done cleverly to hide/obscure facial details most of the time or keep them at a distance. You will also notice polygon count is quite low and the models (Squall and Rinoa) are not detailed at all.

What makes the demo stand out was the fluid, life-like motion-captured animation which at the time was unseen, real-time. Otherwise, the demo isn't that remarkable, and has been outdone on the PS2 many times since.

Alucard
05-21-2005, 08:28 AM
Sony whore sony whore!

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:30 AM
Well here you can see what a close-up of what Squall's face looked like from the actual FFVIII CG cinema~

http://psxmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/ffviii4.jpg

Note that this level of detail would be impossible to reproduce on the PS2 unless the face was all that the system had to render.

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:32 AM
And who is saying the Ballroom scene looks like FFVIII CG? :haha: The Ballroom Scene I am talking about was the one shown at the tech demo for the PS2. And that cAN be easily reproduced.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:33 AM
That was the point of showing the original videos! They were trying to compare the power of the PS2 with the CG from FFVIII.

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:35 AM
Anyone with half a brain could look at the Ballroom video and see that the quality was NOT the same as the CG video.

CG video comparisons notwithstanding, the ballroom demo WAS representative of what we got to see on PS2.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:36 AM
It was close but no cigar. Square based that video on the initial specs Sony gave but which were later downgraded shortly before the system released.

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:42 AM
My point stands. Specs or not, original CG sequence or not, hype or not, it ALL DOESNT MATTER.

The fact is that the ballroom sequence shown was REPRESENTATIVE of what we got to see on PS2 in ACTUAL GAMES. We have cutsenes rendered in real time that look JUST AS GOOD, if not BETTER. MGS3 is living proof of this.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:47 AM
Ha! MGS3's cinemas feature blocky textures and animation which is a joke in comparison. So you're trying to make people believe that the PS2 can render that cutscene with all the detail present, with all the animation, without any slowdown, just as it was represented.... No way, no how. The Xbox and GC could probably handle that sequence as is, but with a PS2 you're bound to see sacrifices because the demo was built on stronger specs than a PS2 can actually handle. Unfortunately, we've only got a small grainy video to work with, but my hindsight is still 20/20 and I can discern between that graphic quality and what the PS2 is actually capable of handling.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:48 AM
Anybody with a copy of FFVIII, please put up a clear video of the ballroom sequence. Now block out in your mind all those other characters and just focus on Squall, Rinoa and the backdrop. Ask yourself one question: Can the PS2 handle it? The answer is "No."

Seska
05-21-2005, 08:54 AM
Christ on a crutch, what is your problem, are you even reading any of this? Can the PS2 do CG on the fly? HELL NO IT CANT. Can it do the ballroom sequence shown in the demo videos I listed above? HELL YES IT CAN.

Now. This is the tricky part. Repeat after me:

Is the Ballroom demo equal in quality to the CG Ballroom sequence in FFVIII?

No.

It.

Is.

Not.

The ballroom demo is so lacking in detail I am amazed you still cannot see it. The models are poor and lacking in polygons, the facial textures arent as sharp as you'd believe (which is why we dont get any real closeups of them), Rinoa's hair barely moves much at all. The background is compromised of a few crappy textures and transparent polygons, and on top of it all we have a few light sources to pretty things up.

And you are telling me the PS2 is not capable of this? Damn, you need your eyes checked as well.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 08:58 AM
The PS2 is not capable of the CG, that particular cinema, nor the Tekken demo shown. Yes, they reduced the polygon count/detail a bit, but can you show me an actual game with detail and animation on par with that demo? Unfortunately, I have to get going now but I'll check back in your thread later.

Seska
05-21-2005, 09:05 AM
For the love of god, on par with the ballroom demo? Are you serious? IVe said it before, look at MGS2 or MGS3 and you will see better cutscenes with more character details and animation AND better envioronments than shown in the ballroom sequence.

If you still dont believe it, I suggest you grab a copy of VirtualDub and load the ballroom sequence video into it and watch it frame by frame. You will understnad what I mean by low detail. The scene was very cleverly rendered to obscure as much detil as possible, but the final effect was great and CERTAINLY has been outdone on the PS2 since in many realtime cutscenes. I, for one, am tired of trying to get you see the low quality of the ballroom sequence.

As for the Tekken Tag demo, I dont really see what you find so outstanding about it. That there are multiple characters on screen? Games like Dynasty Warriors prove this can be done, and the graphical quality of Tekken 5 far outscores the crappy textures of the Tekken demo.

And yes, the PS2 is not capable of rendering real-time CG, you win a cigar! Then again, no-one ever claimed it was.

BlindMaphisto
05-21-2005, 09:20 AM
Whats the most famous Sony lie? Our playstation 2's can do toy story graphics in real time? Yeah, my playstation 2 with its ****ty lens can barely read the damn toy story dvd.

Cross
05-21-2005, 10:01 AM
That rumor has been owned on GF. No one uses it anymore because its been proven, with links, that microsoft where the ones that said that about their XBOX.

BlindMaphisto
05-21-2005, 10:05 AM
Show me these links

Do a Google on "Toy Story + Emotion Engine" and you will see about 500 links talking about Sony's infamous claims.

Cross
05-21-2005, 10:19 AM
news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html?legacy=cnet

Here ya go. See how the little kids in the internet warp stories. This and the PS2 demos are some of those examples.

BlindMaphisto
05-21-2005, 10:53 AM
Just because Microsoft was stupid enough to use the same bull**** doesn't mean Sony didn't try it first.

http://www.hipinteractive.com/cms/content/Newsweek-PlayStation21.pdf


Here's some fun snippets of some of the bull**** they were selling us at the turn of the century.

But the most significant aspect of the PS2 might be its ability to hook into the Internet, making it a "Trojan horse" to bring online gaming, e-commerce, Web browsing, e-mail and downloading of music, software and video into the home.

"You can communicate to a new cybercity," gushes Ken Kutaragi, the visionary behind the PlayStation. "This will be the ideal home server. Did you see the movie 'The Matrix'? Same interface. Same concept. Starting from next year, you can jack into 'The Matrix'!"

The secret is the Emotion Engine, a fast, high-powered chip set that is fine-tuned to generate polygons, the building blocks of 3-D graphics. While the original PlayStation could handle a mere 360,000 polygons per second, version 2 can spit out more than 20 million: it's a jump from "South Park" to "Toy Story."

"It's historic, a mass-market appliance that fundamentally changes society in the way the printing press did," says Trip Hawkins, founder of Electronic Arts and CEO of 3DO. "This is a new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature."

Dr. Bombay
05-21-2005, 11:06 AM
And who is saying the Ballroom scene looks like FFVIII CG? :haha: .

Sony. And Square

DBJAY
05-21-2005, 11:45 AM
I'm just curious what games Seska feels have passed the PS2 tech demos? I've played quite a few of them, but I haven't seen many that have stunned me with their graphics when seen as a comparison to what the demos showed.

To me, Tekken 5, GT4, and God of War are the standouts this year. Usually though, most of the game developers opt for the cheapest way out so even if the PS2 theoretically could do it's demo(s) in a game, the odds of seeing it are slim. Even Soul Calibur 3 is still not matching the Tekken demo Namco did for the PS2. That doesn't make it a bad game of course.

[M]egaman Ver.6
05-21-2005, 12:33 PM
Watching the demos for the first time, some of the demos have been passed up graphically by the PS2 especially what looked like a GT demo was already passed by GT4 in terms of, Tekken 5 looks better than the Tekken demo, and the FFVIII ball room scene isn't impossible to be produced on the PS2, has anyone here seen Black?
=

Alucard
05-21-2005, 01:19 PM
I'm still waiting for the PS2 to fire a missile at another country. I was promised it could fire missiles. PS3 better be able to do something equally as flashy, aside from have all of internet inside.

[M]egaman Ver.6
05-21-2005, 01:36 PM
I'm still waiting for the PS2 to fire a missile at another country. I was promised it could fire missiles. PS3 better be able to do something equally as flashy, aside from have all of internet inside.

Just play your PS2 for more than 3 hours then shoot it at a country, it's about the same as a 100 megaton bomb.

burpingcat
05-21-2005, 02:18 PM
You guys are crazy, and I agree with Seska 100%. Not only are all those demo videos undeniably real now that we've become very familiar with what the PS2 can do, but the PS2 has done way better than them. Especially that GT demo...my god, even GT3 is way better than that.

DarknessTearv2
05-21-2005, 02:24 PM
Yeah I was talking about this a few days ago on IRC. The PS2 seems to have produced better results, really.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 03:02 PM
some people just have a hard time admitting that they are wrong :P

DeathStroke
05-21-2005, 03:29 PM
It's undeniable that the demos have been surpassed by actual PS2 games. The thing though with people is that the longer they believe in a certain thing, the harder it is to make them see the truth afterwards. People probably remember them being a lot more impressive because the standards were not quite so high back in 2000. God of War alone is more impressive then anything shown in those videos. Heck, we may as well go back to the first Ratchet and Clank or the original MGS2.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 05:11 PM
Seska ~ "For the love of god, on par with the ballroom demo? Are you serious? IVe said it before, look at MGS2 or MGS3 and you will see better cutscenes with more character details and animation AND better envioronments than shown in the ballroom sequence."

And I've said before that they don't. Pay close attention to the FFVIII video, at every minute detail, at every tinny animation on the characters. I've never, ever seen a PS2 game that looks and moves so graceful, and that includes all of Square's PS2 efforts. Y'know, the same people behind that demo.

Seska ~ "If you still dont believe it, I suggest you grab a copy of VirtualDub and load the ballroom sequence video into it and watch it frame by frame. You will understnad what I mean by low detail. The scene was very cleverly rendered to obscure as much detil as possible, but the final effect was great and CERTAINLY has been outdone on the PS2 since in many realtime cutscenes. I, for one, am tired of trying to get you see the low quality of the ballroom sequence."

I notice that it's more pixelated than the original CG cutscene but that's about it. Again, I've seen the video in high-res and know exactly what it is.

Seska ~ "As for the Tekken Tag demo, I dont really see what you find so outstanding about it. That there are multiple characters on screen? Games like Dynasty Warriors prove this can be done, and the graphical quality of Tekken 5 far outscores the crappy textures of the Tekken demo."

Now you're living in denial. Did Namco top that demo with Soul Calibur 2, Tekken 5 or SC3? Nope. Looking at all those characters when they do the close-up of the crowd, it looks better than an Xbox!

Seska ~ "And yes, the PS2 is not capable of rendering real-time CG, you win a cigar! Then again, no-one ever claimed it was."

Square and Sony tried to imply that it could by showing mock-up videos, did they not? IT's the same story as when Nintendo showed off those early forest videos which were supposedly running on the GC hardware -- I have yet to see a GC look so good, and that includes RE4 and the new Zelda.

BlindMaphisto ~ "Whats the most famous Sony lie? Our playstation 2's can do toy story graphics in real time? Yeah, my playstation 2 with its ****ty lens can barely read the damn toy story dvd."


What's so ironic about your comment is that even though your SN implies you're blind, your vision is better than most of the other members' seem to be. Toy Story-quality graphics on the PS2.... that'll be the day.

DBJAY ~ "
I'm just curious what games Seska feels have passed the PS2 tech demos? I've played quite a few of them, but I haven't seen many that have stunned me with their graphics when seen as a comparison to what the demos showed."

Seska and others are judging the demos on small, poor videos with crappy resolution. Apparently, they never watched those demos back when you could download them in high-res. I, too, have never seen a PS2 game look as good. Heck, even RE4 looks tame in comparison to the GC version, and the GC would struggle to run that FFVIII demo alone. I don't believe that even the Xbox could handle the Tekken demo as each of the characters looks just as good if not better than the characters in the Dead or Alive games on Xbox. And we all know that no power is greater than X.

DBJAY ~ "To me, Tekken 5, GT4, and God of War are the standouts this year. Usually though, most of the game developers opt for the cheapest way out so even if the PS2 theoretically could do it's demo(s) in a game, the odds of seeing it are slim. Even Soul Calibur 3 is still not matching the Tekken demo Namco did for the PS2. That doesn't make it a bad game of course."

Right on. It's the gaming experience which matters the most. Even if they could make a game which looked better than the new Final Fantasy movie, what would it matter if the game wasn't any good? But that's stating the obvious.

[M]egaman Ver.6 ~ "Watching the demos for the first time, some of the demos have been passed up graphically by the PS2 especially what looked like a GT demo was already passed by GT4 in terms of, Tekken 5 looks better than the Tekken demo, and the FFVIII ball room scene isn't impossible to be produced on the PS2, has anyone here seen Black?"

Right. And crack is good.

burpingcat ~ "You guys are crazy, and I agree with Seska 100%. Not only are all those demo videos undeniably real now that we've become very familiar with what the PS2 can do, but the PS2 has done way better than them. Especially that GT demo...my god, even GT3 is way better than that."

Yeah, better than those GT demos. But nothing on the PS2 matches those other demos.

DarknessTearv2 ~ "Yeah I was talking about this a few days ago on IRC. The PS2 seems to have produced better results, really."

The best-looking software for PS2 includes MGS3, DMC, God of War and Tekken 5. In GoW, one of the best graphic displays happens when Kratos is climbing on the outskirts of that Titan's back and you see the titan below moving around. That sequence is the closest that I've seen the PS2 get to those demos' quality, but even that didn't look as good. You have to factor everything into the equation: real-time animation on everything, including the character's joints and clothing, the textures/detail, the smooth 60 FPS movement without slowdown, and more.

naruto_sensei ~ "some people just have a hard time admitting that they are wrong :P"

Some people are just blind Sony worshippers.

DeathStroke ~ "It's undeniable that the demos have been surpassed by actual PS2 games. The thing though with people is that the longer they believe in a certain thing, the harder it is to make them see the truth afterwards. People probably remember them being a lot more impressive because the standards were not quite so high back in 2000. God of War alone is more impressive then anything shown in those videos. Heck, we may as well go back to the first Ratchet and Clank or the original MGS2."

Put up a clear video of those demos and then put up a clear video of an actual PS2 game running and then disprove it. Until then, you're just firing blanks because you are trying to cover-up the facts because it's convenient when you've only got tinny, crappy videos to work with.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 06:11 PM
Seska and others are judging the demos on small, poor videos with crappy resolution.
the resolution isn't that great but its still good enough for me to notice the ugly charachter models and background in the ballroom demo. do you serisously think the PS2 can't do 2 low poly charachters on an ugly background? VF4 and tekken 5 look much better than that demo especially tekken 5. both also run at 60 FPS Feature rich colourful backgrounds and superb animation.

burpingcat
05-21-2005, 06:18 PM
Sigh...I really doubt you'd be convinced even if we found the hi-res versions of the videos, made the comparisons to games on PS2, and showed you that we're right. Would it prove that Killzone 2 video is real? Nope, but at least it says "hey, maybe SCE isn't quite the filthy pack of liars and rapists that we love to think they are". This has nothing to do with fanboyism, it's just common-fricken-sense that those videos are ugly compared to the PS2 games we see these days.

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 06:24 PM
No, the only thing I've noticed is people who clearly need to have their eyes checked.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 06:25 PM
No, the only thing I've noticed is people who clearly need to have their eyes checked.
yes and their names start with I and D

Icarus4578
05-21-2005, 06:31 PM
No, their names begin with an S, an N and a B.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 06:42 PM
I'm getting tired of this. I back up my side of the arguement with evidence yet all you can say is that I'm blind. Way to go icarus.

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 07:10 PM
What in the Hell is the point of this thread? I have to say that the PS2 certainly HAS NOT lived up to the hype Sony pandered when it was first announced, but why does it matter? Despite Sony's lies, it quickly became the most widespread system, despite the Dreamcast (at PS2 launch) having better looking (and playing) games. I recall Sony stating that their hype would stand for launch games, not stuff popping up five years down the line.

You mentioned three launch games somehow legitimizing your hyperbole. The Bouncer is was a so-so brawler that (in case you didn't play it) was just about the blurriest thing I've ever seen on any console ever. Driving Type S was a horrid driving game with graphics summarily PWND by F355 Challenge Passione Rossa. Tekken Tag was a jaggy mess that played incredibly (I still think it's the best Tekken, and I hate Tekken!), but Soul Calibur on the DC still looked better.

So are you saying that the PS2 launch lived up to the hype by producing sub-Dreamcast graphics? I guess my poor DC should take that as a compliment.

It's gotten better, mind you, but the PS2 still hasn't delivered on Sony's (graphics) hype. Some of the NEWEST games, such as GT4 and God of War, come close, but are still no cigar when viewed through the crystalline lens of ED/HD. (Don't tell me that doesn't matter, either. Those demos were in higher resolutions, probably from a PC, and if you care not to agree, Joe R. and I will want to have a chat with you in a dark alley. :P )

You're acting like a Republican; your side has won but you still play the victim. I just don't get it...

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 07:33 PM
whether or not the games looked as good as the tech demos at launch is the developer's problem. All I know is that those graphics are deffinetly doable on the PS2.

DeathStroke
05-21-2005, 08:20 PM
What we have in front of us now is proof and people still won't see it. :sweat:

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 08:50 PM
What we have in front of us now is proof and people still won't see it. :sweat:

You all keep speaking of evidence yet the rest of us have no idea what you mean. I haven't seen any. Care to elucidate?

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 08:54 PM
You all keep speaking of evidence yet the rest of us have no idea what you mean. I haven't seen any. Care to elucidate?
ok, can you honestly look at the ballroom demo and then look at a game like Virtua fighter 4 evo (I'm being nice) and say that the tech demo looks way better?
and don't give me the video resolution is too small excuse. it should be good enough for you to see that there's nothing impressive about it exept for maybe the animation.

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 08:57 PM
ok, can you honestly look at the ballroom demo and then look at a game like Virtua fighter 4 evo (I'm being nice) and say that the tech demo looks way better?
and don't give me the video resolution is too small excuse. it should be good enough for you to see that there's nothing impressive about it exept for maybe the animation.

So are you saying now that the tech demos weren't that impressive in the first place? Wouldn't that make this entire exchange pointless?

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 09:03 PM
they were impressive back in 2000 but now its looking kind of fugly compared to the other PS2 games.

DeathStroke
05-21-2005, 09:24 PM
So are you saying now that the tech demos weren't that impressive in the first place? Wouldn't that make this entire exchange pointless?

The argument from the start has been that the tech demos have been surpassed by actual games on PS2. How would what you said make the exchange pointless. In fact, it would only strengthen our point.

You all keep speaking of evidence yet the rest of us have no idea what you mean. I haven't seen any. Care to elucidate?

You've got videos of the original PS2 tech demos that Seska provided. Until something better is produced, that is undeniable fact place in front of you. And it shows the validity of one argument while showing the other for the biased fanboyism that it is.

Chrono081
05-21-2005, 09:56 PM
I'm still waiting for the PS2 to fire a missile at another country. I was promised it could fire missiles. PS3 better be able to do something equally as flashy, aside from have all of internet inside.

I remember that. When Saddam was supposidely buying up ps2's to use to fire rockets or whatever. The real grinch who stold christmas.

manji72
05-21-2005, 10:11 PM
Hmm you know only a couple of those were actually surpassed. Even MGS2 or 3 either doesn't match or is on par alot of those two games look like they have pre-rendered backgrounds and from the camera angles MGS uses its tough to determine its either over the top or firt-person view from what I know and have seen. There is no doubt MGS2+3 CG looks better or equal to that FF vid but in-game I don't know about that. Alot of PS2 game have quite alot of jaggies and the only thing that matches that GT demo well the style at least is Tokyo Extreme Racer, GT3 in-game matches that um no it doesn't GT4 yes it kills it.

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 10:12 PM
The argument from the start has been that the tech demos have been surpassed by actual games on PS2. How would what you said make the exchange pointless. In fact, it would only strengthen our point.

OK. I'll at least concede that in some ways that the PS2 has surpassed the demos. Mind you, looking back after years of having an XBox and GC, those demos look pretty crappy. The footage isn't the of the best quality for analysis either. The driving demo has been easily outdone by GT4. I have to state that the human models (Reiko, Squall and Rinoa) have not yet been reproduced with such high definition. Yes, even in Virtua Fighter 4 or God of War (well, at least at the demo kiosk) or what have you. The face render from the Final Fantasy movie was sheer fantasy on Sony's part. So, we can say in the PS2's defense that it can at least do driving games right.

Speaking of which, what was the point of this? I still have no idea from where Seska's complaint arose.

You've got videos of the original PS2 tech demos that Seska provided. Until something better is produced, that is undeniable fact place in front of you. And it shows the validity of one argument while showing the other for the biased fanboyism that it is.

I'll deny that, so it isn't fact. Sorry. Remember that this entire thread seems grounded in some predisposed fanboy thought, so watch being the pot and calling the kettle black.

Wait. Now I think I get it.

When Sony announced the PS2's capabilities back in 1999, it was a direct assault on the Dreamcast's launch. At the 2000 E3, we saw these demos and were all "wow." We were meant to believe that we'd be getting graphics of this calibur with the system when it would launch later. So, idiots waited and the Dreamcast was left on the shelves. When the PS2 was finally released, we got crap games that looked much worse than the demos, as well as newer Dreamcast releases.

Incredibly, people bit anyway. I take comfort in the fact that their blind allegiance to Sony yielded them faulty hardware and mediocre titles.

Now, we have the same situation again. Sony won't be the first out the gate, so they have to make something appetizing to get Johnny Consumer to wait for their product. In come the demos, presented as actual gameplay, but later debunked as CG. I heard somewhere here that the Killzone film has been in development for months. More than likely, the titles at launch will not look anywhere near that amazing, just like last time.

In comes Seska, and reminds us that even though the demos were prettier than the launch titles, developers eventually got enough experience to almost match or barely surpass said demos five years down the line. Big deal. The demos displayed, by virtue of being the first elements of developing games, can be assumed to blossom in the initial set of software releases. You don't demo something you plan on creating in several years. Unless, of course, you're Sony.

So, what's the point? I feel Seska's underlying message here is a preemptive defense of the PS3. Gamers will naturally be incredulous with anything Sony demos after this generation's initial fiasco. So, it would be best to show that even if the demos were overestimating, it'll be alright because the PS3 will eventually be able to produce graphics comparable to these demos.

Once again, big deal. I'll be playing Halo 3, kthx.

Sony expects you to wait and purchase their system with the promise that they might just someday be able to match their hype with actual products. I guess Seska wants us to wait too.

How about instead we hold Sony to their hype and not buy into it until we see an actual launch title demoed?

Wait. You won't; you're on a Sony fanboy bender, D, N, and S. Have fun being patient. :sweat:

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 10:36 PM
I have to state that the human models (Reiko, Squall and Rinoa) have not yet been reproduced with such high definition. Yes, even in Virtua Fighter 4 or God of War (well, at least at the demo kiosk) or what have you.

I've seen a somewhat hi res pic of the ball room scene with a close up of rinoa and it seems to be using the same or slightly less updated version of the FFX engine.
and VF4 deffinetly beats the crap out of the charachter models in that tech demo. don't know about god of war though.
also like I said I'm not going to buy PS3 on launch day or anything, but I'm also not going to call them names and not belive anything they say.

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 11:02 PM
I've seen a somewhat hi res pic of the ball room scene with a close up of rinoa and it seems to be using the same or slightly less updated version of the FFX engine.
and VF4 deffinetly beats the crap out of the charachter models in that tech demo. don't know about god of war though.
also like I said I'm not going to buy PS3 on launch day or anything, but I'm also not going to call them names and not belive anything they say.

Might be, but even the characters rendered by the FFX engine didn't look that nice. I could see the FFX-2 comes very close, so I guess I could concede matching in that context. VF4 has impressive models, but on the PS2 they are decidedly of a lower polygon count. The texturing may be a bit better than the demos, but the PS2 sucks at texturing anyway. The facial models, under closer scrutiny and despite a different take artistically, are quite similar to the Dreamcast VF 3tb so far as construction. VF4 also suffers from some blurriness in general (a plague upon many PS2 games), and isn't nearly as clean as the FF8 or Reiko demo.

As for the name calling, I'm only responding to the stabs from others (not necessarily from naruto). Don't start what you can't finish, as they say.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 11:37 PM
Ballroom techdemo:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Shaneh87/rinoaps25wc.jpg



FFX:



http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/020402/ffx/ffx_screen008.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2001/ps2/ffx/review/finalfantasyx_1214_screen011.jpg
also keep in mind that FF X was released very early in PS2's life. about 9 months after PS2's US launch

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 11:49 PM
Note I wrote it was close, but the characters don't move with such fluidity. As I recall, the animations, especially when speaking, were very stilted; just enough so to seem a bit unnatural. There was quite a bit of improvement in FFX-2, though.

naruto_sensei
05-21-2005, 11:53 PM
Note I wrote it was close, but the characters don't move with such fluidity. As I recall, the animations, especially when speaking, were very stilted; just enough so to seem a bit unnatural. There was quite a bit of improvement in FFX-2, though.
close? admit it FFX looks way better than that tech demo. about the animation, if they had to motion capture eveytime yuna was talking to tidus or something the production cost would skyrocket. its just motion capture though. its deffinetly possible on the PS2 look at MGS2 and 3. you don't want me to post screens of those do you?

Thunder Force 6
05-21-2005, 11:59 PM
close? admit it FFX looks way better than that tech demo. about the animation, if they had to motion capture eveytime yuna was talking to tidus or something the production cost would dramatically increase. its just motion capture though. its deffinetly possible on the PS2 look at MGS2 and 3. you don't want me to post screens of those do you?

Bah! I've conceded they come close/match it. Isn't that enough? Nobody's responded to my charge that this is one huge Sony-fellating thread! Or is it just that obvious? At this point, I'd concede whatever you want if you could prove this thread has any intellectual merit whatsoever.

As for the screenshots, just so long as they aren't from Gamespot.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 12:05 AM
Might be, but even the characters rendered by the FFX engine didn't look that nice.
not a big fan of gamespot, huh? how about IGN then?

http://tinypic.com/5bo08x
http://tinypic.com/5bo0b9
http://tinypic.com/5bo0fl
http://tinypic.com/5bo0g3
http://tinypic.com/5bo0h4
mm. those are some nice textures. almost makes me want to lick the screen.

Thunder Force 6
05-22-2005, 01:09 AM
not a big fan of gamespot, huh? how about IGN then?

mm. those are some nice textures. almost makes me want to lick the screen.

I was kidding, you know. Although I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of Yuna in that way. :P

PS: MGS2 looked way better on the XBox. Of course, I'm only guessing because the XBox version is the only one I played. Thus, I can't comment. Or see the images, for that matter.

PS PS: You still haven't answered my question.

Nephlabobo
05-22-2005, 03:51 AM
But as somoene in some other thread already mentioned, The Bouncer, Type S and Tekken Tag (despite all three of them being crap games) demonstrated that the PS2 did live up to the hype generated by the tech demos.

Tekken Tag wasn't crap.

burpingcat
05-22-2005, 04:27 AM
MGS2 had slowdown on Xbox that the PS2 didn't have. Also, the demo movies for MGS2/3 use pretty much the same graphics engine as the game, at the very least the character/environment models are the same...if anything they add some lighting effects.


Anyway, like naruto sensei said- the reason why the FF8 video looks better than FFX video has to do with the motion capturing as well as the fact that the FF8 video was a graceful dance, as where FFX's scenes were mostly just people standing around talking. There is NOTHING special about that FF8 video otherwise.

Those FF8 faces barely have details compared to FFX's faces (it's not just coincidence that Rinoa and Squall have pale, flawless complexions). And notice how Rinoa's neck and shoulders barely have any detail. I really wonder how many PS2 games you've played if you don't think the PS2 has outdone its tech demo videos.

Cross
05-22-2005, 09:02 AM
Meh, there is a difference in being a blind SONY fanboy, and a blind SONY hater Icarus. Maybe we are fanboys, maybe you are a hater, but atleast we are in the right board.

Seska
05-22-2005, 09:17 AM
Wow, thread explosion. Well, as many have already pointed out in the thread, people wont see what they dont want to see, so there's little point in arguing with someone who has already made his mind up.

The main point of the thread was to show that yes, the PS2 demos back then garnered the same kind of criticism and skepticism that the PS3 demos are getting nowadays, despite the fact that yes, we got plenty of games that looked like the tech demos, and even better.

With this in mind, I am fairly optimistic that PS3 (and even x360) will be able to manage realtime technical wonders like seen in KZ2 and Motorstorm. Heck, its not even a far stretch from what we saw in the Unreal demo and Gears of War.

Chrono081
05-22-2005, 09:30 AM
Have you been hearing the rumors supposidly coming from people with the kits that ps3 is 3x more powerful then 360?

Seska
05-22-2005, 09:54 AM
I wouldnt put much credence to those rumors, all smack talk aside, both machines look more than capable of delivering the same technological feats. On some article I read somewhere, the difference between PS3 and X360 seems more like the difference between a 6800 Ultra and a 6800 GT.

Still, I guess only time will tell.

Thunder Force 6
05-22-2005, 02:50 PM
And as I wrote before, should we expect these graphics at launch or in five years? Is there any reason, given Sony's record, that we should wait for their launch if we already concede the graphics probably won't match demo quality? How about in 4 or 5 years, when the PS3 may come to match the hype?

You demo something you'll have in the immediate future (unless you're 3D Realms). The sentiment is that Sony is showing these now, giving the idea that this will be delivered when the system is released. They did nothing to dispel such a sentiment when the PS2 was generating such buzz. We recall how that turned out.

Thus, we have one person writing they lived up to the hype five years later. That wasn't the point. The hype was generated for the launch, and Sony failed to deliver. They're generating a lot of hype this time with CG movies that have taken months to render.

I have no reason to take Sony on their word and believe they can give me a game like Killzone 2 at launch, or whatnot. I have no reason to believe they can deliver anything of that calibur. I will concede that they might be able to deliver something like that in several years. However, by then, it would be expected and few will think about the demos so far down the line.

Is this the line of reasoning that you want to instill, Seska? I'd think even fewer would be willing to defend them for taking so long to get their ducks in a row and live up to their big talk.

I'm hoping people won't fall for it again. What Sony did was misleading and mercenary, and it will take more than more of the same to restore trust.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 02:57 PM
um if you didn't notice FFX came out 9 months(in japan) after the US PS2 launch and MGS2 came out a little bit more than a year after(the launch). Both of them beat the crap out of the demos. and they didn't come out "five years" after.
oh and the screens are up(in case you still care). stupid IGN..

Thunder Force 6
05-22-2005, 03:15 PM
I've already told you what I think. I guess there's really no way for this to evolve past a he-said, she-said situation; I don't think FFX, MGS2 OR 3 look better than the demos. That's it. End of story. You believe otherwise, and I can't understand how. I'm looking at real, certain victories for the PS2, such as GT4. We could split hairs over FFX, MGS2, or MGS3 all day, and still have the same take. I mean, how do they look better? Polygon count? Texturing? What the hell? You say they look better, and then scream: "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE IT? YOU MUST BE BLIND!" I've tried discussing texturing, polygon counts, smoothness of animations, resolutions, etc., and all I get it is: "They still look better. Nyah."

You know that at first, I wanted to agree, but then I looked very closely at each demo. Little details emerge that I've tried to discuss, but nobody's seemed interested in hearing. What PS2 owners lack is a critical eye for gaming. I can't blame you, because I've been playing games on my other systems (including the Dreamcast) at ED resolutions. I take note of clarity, texture resolutions, etc. I looked at some of the PS2 examples (VF4, FFX, FFX-2) through the finest lens possible (my RGB monitor). I scoured the scenes in question, and then I made my call. What do you guys do? HEY LET'S GO FIND SOME SCREENSHOTS THAT'LL SHOW'EM!

Also, MGS2 on the XBox has no slowdown. None. I don't know where that came from, but when I played through it (in 480p, mind you), it was smooth as silk, all the time.

So... perhaps this entire argument was pointless because it was grounded on such a subjective foundation? The end effect is that Sony is still lying to you. Not just me, BUT YOU TOO. Why the loyalty? Why fall on your sword defending their marketing machine? I'm at a loss.

For me, I'm still sore about the Dreamcast. It was snuffed out because of **** like this. I'd rather not see another good system be crippled by blind ambition mated with blind fanboyism.

DeathStroke
05-22-2005, 03:17 PM
This is not to mention that the game getting so much criticism, Killzone 2, will likely not be a launch title. On IGN, its release is listed at the tail end of 2006 so they have nearly two years to deliver if the release date holds up. What's funny is that the only game I am interested in, DMC4, doesn't have a release date.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 03:35 PM
omg how can you still not see that FFX looks better than the tech demos? ok look in FFX each charachter has more polys.(you can see that just by looking at the images that I posted) ok still following me? the backgrounds are usually way bigger and more complex, and there's moments when there's more than just 2 charachters on screen. you said when they talk it looks weird well in the tech demo they don't even talk. we already discussed the motion capturing. oh and about the HD stuff if you look at the screens FFX has better aliasing.
just admit it sony(or rather konami and square) delivered on their hype with FFX and MGS2 and I'll go away

TheHardware
05-22-2005, 04:09 PM
weeee.... i like my p2

Finalizer
05-22-2005, 04:14 PM
...Okay, maybe I'm just completely crazy, but I think it's impossible to convince anyone of what looks better on the visual standpoint because people may see things differently. What one person sees as a crappy character model might look great to another; what one person sees as stilted motion might seem fluid to another. Granted, I'm not talking about games with a huge noticable difference between them, but the examples shown here have the problem of looking alot alike, and so people will percieve the small differences the way they wish to. Therefore, what seems to be at a lower level graphically to one may seem above to another.

To those who are asking "WTF is this topic about?", I guess it's pretty much one's way of exhausing aggrivation over the large number of people accusing Sony of having their games look "worse" than the tech demos shown.

Personally, I couldn't care less if they're "better" or "worse" than the demos; the games look on par to me, and were pretty much superb when the PS2 came out. Same thing here; Who cares if the polygon count or whatever in the launch titles is as good as in the tech demos? We'll still be seeing some awesome looking games either way, so no complaints here. :D

My $0.02

Seska
05-22-2005, 04:43 PM
I'm hoping people won't fall for it again. What Sony did was misleading and mercenary, and it will take more than more of the same to restore trust.

Sony delivered games with the quality of the tech demos they have shown. GT4 and GT5 look better than that GT demo. FFX looks better than the ballroom demo. Hell, Jak/Ratchet/Tekken 4/VF4evo all deliver superior quality graphics and it didnt take those games an eternity to be released.

So, seeing as they delivered on their tech demo promises, no, they did not mislead.

As for "restore" trust, are you joking? PS2 is market leader. People love their Playstations, they got a fuckload of games on their machine from the largest variety of third party developers on the planet. Already for PS3 the media is lapping up Sony's promises. Wether this time around they are true or false remains to be seen, but there is no "trust" they need restored. You want to talk trust restoration, talk to disgruntled Gamecube owners. Yes, I am one of them.

Will we see games with the graphical quality of KZ2 available at launch? I pesonally doubt it, but I do believe the time gap between games that fully exploit the PS3 hardware and those that don't will be much shorter, given that the PS3 is much easier to develop for than the PS2 was.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 04:45 PM
you mean GT3 and GT4. GT5 (vision gran turismo) has not been released yet

Seska
05-22-2005, 04:48 PM
oops, yes, my bad :D

DeathStroke
05-22-2005, 04:57 PM
You want to talk trust restoration, talk to disgruntled Gamecube owners. Yes, I am one of them.

I'm one as well. The GC started out with such promise but it has completely fizzled here at the end. Nintendo could not even hold on to Sillicon Knights and Factor 5. Two parties that I thought were absolutely key for them after Rare's departure. Now Sillicon Knights is on the 360 and Factor 5 is developing for PS3. There's still Retro but I'm not exactly looking forward to Metroid Prime 3 since Echoes, IMO, was disappointing.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 04:59 PM
isn't metroid pirme 3 being developed by miyamoto's team?

BashingU
05-22-2005, 06:22 PM
You guys are on crack...Sony in those early days of the PS2 presentations never said that in the corase of the systems life span it will surpass the demos it was showing off...They said the system can do what we saw...They lied...You have never played a game that looks like Toy Story on the PS2 in your life...Plus everything that we see on the PS2 that is spectacular is through software, not hardware...It comes with innovations to get around limitations...such as the streaming technology in God of War...There are very few games if any that really are benchmark games that show off the PS2...On average the games on the PS2 are not graphical tour de forces...period....Seska and you other dudes need to stop Jedi mind tricking yourselves...Because I would sure like to see a better looking game on the PS2 then Resident Evil 4 on the GameCube. Which by the way they have screenshots of both systems..

Sinful Sam
05-22-2005, 07:35 PM
isn't metroid pirme 3 being developed by miyamoto's team?
Yeah I heard Miyamoto is producing it but I think Retro is working on it. It has potential to be a good game.

Thunder Force 6
05-22-2005, 07:55 PM
...Okay, maybe I'm just completely crazy, but I think it's impossible to convince anyone of what looks better on the visual standpoint because people may see things differently. What one person sees as a crappy character model might look great to another; what one person sees as stilted motion might seem fluid to another. Granted, I'm not talking about games with a huge noticable difference between them, but the examples shown here have the problem of looking alot alike, and so people will percieve the small differences the way they wish to. Therefore, what seems to be at a lower level graphically to one may seem above to another.

To those who are asking "WTF is this topic about?", I guess it's pretty much one's way of exhausing aggrivation over the large number of people accusing Sony of having their games look "worse" than the tech demos shown.

Personally, I couldn't care less if they're "better" or "worse" than the demos; the games look on par to me, and were pretty much superb when the PS2 came out. Same thing here; Who cares if the polygon count or whatever in the launch titles is as good as in the tech demos? We'll still be seeing some awesome looking games either way, so no complaints here. :D

My $0.02

Thank you, Finalizer. This is what I've been trying to state, yet not quite so eloquently.

I'm suprised that Sony fans so quickly became graphics whores. I'd say I've displayed quite some restraint not bringing the XBox and GC's capabilities into the argument.

As I said, Sony lied. No question. Their demos were presented with the intention of conveying launch title graphics. They did not. Case closed.

People should be incredulous of Sony this time too. Why? Because they've lied in the past. No question. Case closed.

Sony's popularity? I don't know. People are idiots, I guess. The Dreamcast was great, but nobody bought it. The PS2 was sold almost exclusively on hype, and inexplicably, people bit. (Mind you, I own one now, but I saw right through their bull and waited a good two years to grab one.)

The Gamecube has had some great games. Some of the best gaming moments of this generation have been from Gamecube games. I can think of two meaningful moments from the PS2 (in FFX and FFX-2). I probably had the most satisfaction with the XBox, which buried the PS2 in terms of varied and quality gameplay.

As for restoring trust, I meant in their marketing. You've lost focus; we were talking about demos, not total sales. So, let's have some fun, shall we?

*Makes new topic.*

Edit: Maybe later. Things to do. You won't like it, though.

naruto_sensei
05-22-2005, 09:34 PM
I still don't get how sony lied though. they said that the PS2 was capable of graphics shown in those demos and it was. so what's the problem? If the developers that did the launch titles didn't understand the hardware that's not sony's fault.

superRSXs
05-23-2005, 01:18 AM
i like the graphics offered on the PS2 fine...
its always been the gameplay, plot, etc. that held my interest, and i still purchase KOF titles despite the series staying true to its graphical roots for 10 years (whether that is good or bad i dont know...u tell me)

as to whether sony delivered on reproducing the same graphics quality seen in the FFVIII demo, i would say that it has come very close (on par at the least) with current offerings...the best way to disprove seska would be numerical facts, but im sure we dont need to get that deep into the argument...

the bottom line is, whatever the graphical prowess of the PS2 has been, all of you who have posted on this thread will purchase a PS3 in its lifespan. There. I said it.

BGM
05-23-2005, 02:02 AM
The Dreamcast was great, but nobody bought it.
But that had a lot to do with failed Sega systems that came before it, a lot of people did not have faith in Sega systems anymore, and I was one of them!

DarknessTearv2
05-23-2005, 04:43 AM
Thank you, Finalizer. This is what I've been trying to state, yet not quite so eloquently.

I'm suprised that Sony fans so quickly became graphics whores. I'd say I've displayed quite some restraint not bringing the XBox and GC's capabilities into the argument.

As I said, Sony lied. No question. Their demos were presented with the intention of conveying launch title graphics. They did not. Case closed.

People should be incredulous of Sony this time too. Why? Because they've lied in the past. No question. Case closed.

Sony's popularity? I don't know. People are idiots, I guess. The Dreamcast was great, but nobody bought it. The PS2 was sold almost exclusively on hype, and inexplicably, people bit. (Mind you, I own one now, but I saw right through their bull and waited a good two years to grab one.)

The Gamecube has had some great games. Some of the best gaming moments of this generation have been from Gamecube games. I can think of two meaningful moments from the PS2 (in FFX and FFX-2). I probably had the most satisfaction with the XBox, which buried the PS2 in terms of varied and quality gameplay.

As for restoring trust, I meant in their marketing. You've lost focus; we were talking about demos, not total sales. So, let's have some fun, shall we?

*Makes new topic.*

Edit: Maybe later. Things to do. You won't like it, though.


PS2 sucks for it's hardware, GC sucks for it's number of decent titles, XBox sucks with everything but graphics and sound.

Also if you're looking for something with fluidity and good animation, you could always pick up The Bouncer. Good old graphical showcase, though it is a bit old (2000).

Alucard
05-23-2005, 05:31 AM
can think of two meaningful moments from the PS2 (in FFX and FFX-2)..


I'm hoping thats a joke. As those games are almost jokes unto themselves. At least FFX-2 at the very least.

BGM, you failed! For ignoring the cheap dreamcast with its stacks of awesome games. Failfailfail!

DarknessTearv2
05-23-2005, 10:02 AM
I'm hoping thats a joke. As those games are almost jokes unto themselves. At least FFX-2 at the very least.

BGM, you failed! For ignoring the cheap dreamcast with its stacks of awesome games. Failfailfail!

I'd agree that FF8 and FF10-2 sucked but not FF10. I pretty much liked FF10.

Alucard
05-23-2005, 11:58 AM
You see theres the problem. Even I enjoyed 10, bar half the useless characters who sucked. Why did we like it? Because 8 and 9 were painfull. So it made an average game seem better. I mean there was alot of things in it that werent like the other games. Including no world map till the END of the game. Other games that dont have world maps get slagged off by people. But its ok for FFX? Just one example of many icky stuff. At least Yuna isnt as annoying as stinkin Rinoa, queen of the annoying characters guild.

Seska
05-23-2005, 12:17 PM
You guys are on crack...Sony in those early days of the PS2 presentations never said that in the corase of the systems life span it will surpass the demos it was showing off...They said the system can do what we saw...They lied...

Not really. The system CAN do better than what the demos were showing, and it already has.

You have never played a game that looks like Toy Story on the PS2 in your life...

Funny, I dont recall seeing a Toy Story demo. :rolleyes:

Thunder:

As I said, Sony lied. No question. Their demos were presented with the intention of conveying launch title graphics. They did not. Case closed.

There was no statement about such graphics being available at launch. Is Sony to blame for not reaching everyone's expectations on the spot?

The demos were simnply that, a showcase for the PS2's potential, which has been reached over time. But eh, its easy to validate your aguments by pulling facts and statements out of your ass that are simply incorrect.

Or, maybe I am wrong, please quote your source on where Sony said those demos were what we would get at launch?

konstantine
05-23-2005, 02:39 PM
Not really. The system CAN do better than what the demos were showing, and it already has.



Funny, I dont recall seeing a Toy Story demo. :rolleyes:

Thunder:



There was no statement about such graphics being available at launch. Is Sony to blame for not reaching everyone's expectations on the spot?

The demos were simnply that, a showcase for the PS2's potential, which has been reached over time. But eh, its easy to validate your aguments by pulling facts and statements out of your ass that are simply incorrect.

Or, maybe I am wrong, please quote your source on where Sony said those demos were what we would get at launch?

Hey dude,

I totally agree with you here. Sony didn't lie about anything. The system delivered great looking games from a hardware that is considered by many to be the least powerful of current three consoles. I am not one of them and still consider all three consoles on the same level of graphics. I will point one thing out though. I have not seen anything better than Jak and Daxter or God of War on any of the other two consoles and that's a fact. I do admit that Dead or Alive on Xbox is sure a pretty looking game but that is one game? Any way I could always say and point this fact out about sony. %56 percent market share is owned by sony's PS2's console which is the weaker three of course. So how could that be that such a crappy greedy console maker with weak graphic's be on top? Jee I guess I am just stupid, blind and or can only see two color's on screen at once. Today sony stand as the market leader with %56 percent market owned by them. I am with stupid! :yikes:

Thunder Force 6
05-23-2005, 03:21 PM
Thunder:



There was no statement about such graphics being available at launch. Is Sony to blame for not reaching everyone's expectations on the spot?

The demos were simnply that, a showcase for the PS2's potential, which has been reached over time. But eh, its easy to validate your aguments by pulling facts and statements out of your ass that are simply incorrect.

Or, maybe I am wrong, please quote your source on where Sony said those demos were what we would get at launch?

I'm still failing to see how this can keep going. As I asked, do you demo something a year and a half before launch with the intent of conveying launch title graphics, or is it just to show you what it can do forever?

Reality: Hype is generated for console launches, and system demos are created to stir up launch hype. Consumers don't buy into stuff like this thinking they'll have to wait three years after buying it to get results of such calibur. Consumers are an impatient lot, and the PS2 certainly didn't sell on games upon its release (looked to be more an issue of DVD/backward compatibility). In and of that, Sony failed to deliver for years. So, where was I incorrect in this respect? I'm trying logic here; you're using apologetics.

Mind you, I have no evidence per se to back up my claims. This is a forum argument, and really isn't important enough for me to be arsed to dig around the Internet. By the same token, you have no evidence that Sony didn't intend for the demos to resemble launch title graphics. You're simply giving Sony the benefit of the doubt, and this entire thread has been trying to get more discerning types to do the same.

Now then, to be honest, I enjoy my PS2. I was thinking about it some last night and I realized I was blaming the son for the sins of the father. This enitre rant has been a stab at Sony, and I now officially wish to seperate my barbs from the PS2. The PS2 has given me a lot of good times this generation, and it isn't fair of me to trap it in the corner when I wail on corporate nonsense.

Of course, I still laugh incredulously every time someone tries to tell me (with conviction) that the PS2 is the best console of this generation. Giving them the greatest benefit of the dount, it's only their opinion. Otherwise, it's a no contest situation. The Gamecube and XBox are better consoles.

Going back to my initial posting here: what the hell is going on here? I think I may see. PS2 fanboys (avowed or otherwise) seem to have this aching penchant for blind defense of the PS2, as if arising from some sort of inferiority complex. To be honest, the PS2 just can't comapre to the Gamecube or Xbox in terms of power or build quality. The thing is, the PS2 has the most varied selection of games on the market (not I didn't write best), so why apologize for the damn thing? It's doing fine; thus, threads like this are pointless.

So, as confessed, this is a defense of the PS3. The thing will cost too much, the games are anything but exciting, and there are so many blind fanboys rabidly sucking at the teat of Sony that they are wanting to give the benefit of the doubt to Sony for a console that won't be released for another year at least. Don't worry, though. You'll get graphics like that someday. As I wrote, have fun waiting.

A sanctuary for critical thinking, this place ain't.

Your illogical apology for the PS3's price point has failed. (Or is it a defense of its very existence? Why on Earth why?) Can we please give it up now?

DarknessTearv2
05-23-2005, 03:26 PM
You see theres the problem. Even I enjoyed 10, bar half the useless characters who sucked. Why did we like it? Because 8 and 9 were painfull. So it made an average game seem better. I mean there was alot of things in it that werent like the other games. Including no world map till the END of the game. Other games that dont have world maps get slagged off by people. But its ok for FFX? Just one example of many icky stuff. At least Yuna isnt as annoying as stinkin Rinoa, queen of the annoying characters guild.

I guess I'm the only one in the world that liked FF9 a lot. :lol:

konstantine
05-23-2005, 04:10 PM
I'm still failing to see how this can keep going. As I asked, do you demo something a year and a half before launch with the intent of conveying launch title graphics, or is it just to show you what it can do forever?

Reality: Hype is generated for console launches, and system demos are created to stir up launch hype. Consumers don't buy into stuff like this thinking they'll have to wait three years after buying it to get results of such calibur. Consumers are an impatient lot, and the PS2 certainly didn't sell on games upon its release (looked to be more an issue of DVD/backward compatibility). In and of that, Sony failed to deliver for years. So, where was I incorrect in this respect? I'm trying logic here; you're using apologetics.

Mind you, I have no evidence per se to back up my claims. This is a forum argument, and really isn't important enough for me to be arsed to dig around the Internet. By the same token, you have no evidence that Sony didn't intend for the demos to resemble launch title graphics. You're simply giving Sony the benefit of the doubt, and this entire thread has been trying to get more discerning types to do the same.

Now then, to be honest, I enjoy my PS2. I was thinking about it some last night and I realized I was blaming the son for the sins of the father. This enitre rant has been a stab at Sony, and I now officially wish to seperate my barbs from the PS2. The PS2 has given me a lot of good times this generation, and it isn't fair of me to trap it in the corner when I wail on corporate nonsense.

Of course, I still laugh incredulously every time someone tries to tell me (with conviction) that the PS2 is the best console of this generation. Giving them the greatest benefit of the dount, it's only their opinion. Otherwise, it's a no contest situation. The Gamecube and XBox are better consoles.

Going back to my initial posting here: what the hell is going on here? I think I may see. PS2 fanboys (avowed or otherwise) seem to have this aching penchant for blind defense of the PS2, as if arising from some sort of inferiority complex. To be honest, the PS2 just can't comapre to the Gamecube or Xbox in terms of power or build quality. The thing is, the PS2 has the most varied selection of games on the market (not I didn't write best), so why apologize for the damn thing? It's doing fine; thus, threads like this are pointless.

So, as confessed, this is a defense of the PS3. The thing will cost too much, the games are anything but exciting, and there are so many blind fanboys rabidly sucking at the teat of Sony that they are wanting to give the benefit of the doubt to Sony for a console that won't be released for another year at least. Don't worry, though. You'll get graphics like that someday. As I wrote, have fun waiting.

A sanctuary for critical thinking, this place ain't.

Your illogical apology for the PS3's price point has failed. (Or is it a defense of its very existence? Why on Earth why?) Can we please give it up now?


Games are better on the ps2. Enough said.

BGM
05-23-2005, 05:15 PM
I'm hoping thats a joke. As those games are almost jokes unto themselves. At least FFX-2 at the very least.

BGM, you failed! For ignoring the cheap dreamcast with its stacks of awesome games. Failfailfail!
Actually I think I succeeded by getting a PS2 with its tons of awesome games ;) .

Thunder Force 6
05-23-2005, 06:42 PM
Games are better on the ps2. Enough said.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

...

Um... no.

Actually I think I succeeded by getting a PS2 with its tons of awesome games.

I take it you didn't get all those great games at launch.

Sony Fanboy
05-23-2005, 06:53 PM
I take it you didn't get all those great games at launch.

Why is that an issue? 70% of PS2 owners got their consoles 2 years after the launch date.

This thread was never about PS2 vs GC/Xbox - the original post was about the technical graphics of current PS2 games compaired to pre-release ones.

Try and stick on topic - there's a lot of irrelevent stuff being argued here and most of them are assumptions or personal preferences.

superRSXs
05-23-2005, 07:15 PM
I guess I'm the only one in the world that liked FF9 a lot. :lol:

no man i liked it a lot too...throwback to its fantasy roots, not that sci-fi mumbo jumbo. (although VII was a refreshing change....good little filler)

Thunder Force 6
05-23-2005, 07:16 PM
Why is that an issue? 70% of PS2 owners got their consoles 2 years after the launch date.

This thread was never about PS2 vs GC/Xbox - the original post was about the technical graphics of current PS2 games compaired to pre-release ones.

Try and stick on topic - there's a lot of irrelevent stuff being argued here and most of them are assumptions or personal preferences.

This entire thread spiraled out of control soon after its inception. Now we're all reveling in the senselessness. Except for me...

I'm fillibustering. :D

konstantine
05-23-2005, 07:50 PM
This entire thread spiraled out of control soon after its inception. Now we're all reveling in the senselessness. Except for me...

I'm fillibustering. :D

Nice try at being witty and creative.

Thunder Force 6
05-23-2005, 09:06 PM
Nice try at being witty and creative.

Trying? Have you been paying attention?

OF COURSE I'm witty and creative. Duh. :P

wunko
05-23-2005, 10:08 PM
:thumb-dn: Funny how XB fanboys always coming into the PS forum to dis and stuff and I don't often see PS fanboys in the XB forum dissing on XB.

Are people like immature and arrogant these days? :crazy:

Alucard
05-23-2005, 10:23 PM
Well they cant can they. The Xbox games look better then their flimsy system that breaks. Think back to the DC days. PS fanboys riled the crap out of anyone who owed a DC. Shoes on the other foot now for the moment.

Thunder Force 6
05-23-2005, 11:14 PM
Seconded. Sony fanboys are about to be graphics whores again, and seem to be warming up here.

For the record, I'm an anti-fanboy. I assail fanboyism itself; whichever system concerned is irrelevant. I wish others would keep an objective mind when considering gaming. If one dons the blinders and looks toward one avenue of gaming, then he is missing many other experiences.

DarknessTearv2
05-23-2005, 11:15 PM
Regardless a system with great graphics but only 2 - 3 good games isn't better than a system with average graphics and tons of great games.

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 12:26 AM
The problem is that all things considered, no one system is better. Each has it's strengths. It's difficult to get others to see that.

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 12:31 AM
The problem is that all things considered, no one system is better. Each has it's strengths.
wow. thanks for stating the obvious.

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 12:46 AM
D'AR! I WAS STEPPING OFF THE PRECIPICE OF A NUCLEAR OPTION! MUST I FILLIBUSTER FURTHER?!

Gee... wonder where my mind is? :P

DarknessTearv2
05-24-2005, 01:24 AM
Yeah well some strengths are pointless if the most important things are a weakness.

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 02:21 AM
The American Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

The conclusion and formal declaration: We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Alucard
05-24-2005, 04:50 AM
Above = biggest load of crap to make you think you have a say in life.

wtf?

Sony Fanboy
05-24-2005, 08:53 AM
What in the Hell is the point of this thread?

From the user's 1st post; and more irrelevent topics since than anyone else here.

Icarus4578
05-24-2005, 09:08 AM
I'm with Alucard and Thunder Force 6 on the thread topic, for the most part anyway. Do I consider the GC a better console than the PS2? Yes, certainly. Does the GC have a better lineup of software? I don't think it does. In the end, though, it's obvious, to reasonable people, at least, that the PS2 failed to deliver on its expectations. For those who have sold their minds and souls to Sony, no explanation will ever be reasonable enough; they see what they want to see and nothing else.

Sony Fanboy
05-24-2005, 09:29 AM
In the end, though, it's obvious, to reasonable people, at least, that the PS2 failed to deliver on its expectations.

Where did you get this notion from? You cannot assume that your personal expectations were the same as the millions of others who bought a PS2.

And how are you judging reasonable people? Most people waited 2 years after launch to buy a PS2; hardly the act of 1st adopting consumerism.

Icarus4578
05-24-2005, 09:43 AM
And who are you to assume what purpose those people purchased a PS2 for? What if half of those people bought it for its DVD playback functionality? How do you know? What if much of those numbers are fudge, meaning people who bought/traded for used/refurbished consoles? It certainly doesn't reflect the staggering user-base figures Sony spews when it comes to software sales.

Sony Fanboy
05-24-2005, 10:13 AM
What if half of those people bought it for its DVD playback functionality?

Have you not realised your argument has little relevance to your point about expectations?

Ok - say everyone bought a PS2 to play DVD movies - their expectations were met. They bought the machine just as a cheap DVD player - what's wrong with that? No problem for them.

What if much of those numbers are fudge, meaning people who bought/traded for used/refurbished consoles?

Again, what relevence does this have to do with your prior arguments? At least deal with the comments you've made before bringing up new arguments.

It certainly doesn't reflect the staggering user-base figures Sony spews when it comes to software sales

You do realise that software/hardware sales figures are from independent analysists? The same companies who provide software sales for other consoles.

Icarus4578
05-24-2005, 10:16 AM
Actually, no, I don't. Whatever numbers they release to the public, how do you know what is/isn't included?

Sony Fanboy
05-24-2005, 10:20 AM
Actually, no, I don't. Whatever numbers they release to the public, how do you know what is/isn't included?

Ha ha - where do you think those sales charts posts that come up every few weeks on these boards come from?

You really should do some research before you question their authenticity - mediatrack for JPN and ELSPA/Charttrack for EU. Someone in US might know who does the territory.

(Edit - a full EU yearly sales report from ELSPA costs ?40'000. Those chart numbers aren't so easy to collect)

konstantine
05-24-2005, 12:47 PM
I'm with Alucard and Thunder Force 6 on the thread topic, for the most part anyway. Do I consider the GC a better console than the PS2? Yes, certainly. Does the GC have a better lineup of software? I don't think it does. In the end, though, it's obvious, to reasonable people, at least, that the PS2 failed to deliver on its expectations. For those who have sold their minds and souls to Sony, no explanation will ever be reasonable enough; they see what they want to see and nothing else.

Sounds to me like your just bitter and don't have any good games to play on your GC. Maybe you should go get WW.

Cross
05-24-2005, 02:06 PM
LOL, Icarus, you should know that all of those charts usually state how much money was spent on that particular item, people then do the math and come out with the numbers. Trades and repaired items dont generate money, hence they aren't shown.

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 02:55 PM
Har! This thread yet persists? Then so shall my fillibuster!

The PS2 has lousy graphics capabilities and is probably giving me cancer.

I have proof that Sony sold only six PS2s last month. Don't you dare deny it, or you're a fanboy.

Unless the PS3 can dispense cold beer, it will be worthless.

DISCUSS FOREVER!

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 04:29 PM
damn Icarus, you never fail to amaze me bringing all this irrelavant crap into the arguement. The PS2 is capable of doing those tech demoes, in fact its capable of graphics that kick the **** out of those tech demos and don't you try to deny it.
whether or not the launch games looked as good has nothing to do with this. In the end sony did not lie about the machine's capabilities.
Case closed.

Dr. Bombay
05-24-2005, 04:51 PM
Found a couple short movies:

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_1.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_4.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_5.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_6.mpg

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 04:55 PM
Didn't Seska already post those?
EDIT: ya he did.

Mistatee
05-24-2005, 06:15 PM
So lets, for a second, agree with Seska, and say it has been surpassed.
Guess what, that doesnt change the fact that Killzone 2 is fake!

Go ahead and pray that when 6 years go by, you can finally play Killzone 2, oh wait you cant, becuase unlike fighting and racing games, there is alot more going on then just models and moderate AI. Whats this, bullets, bullet holes, destructable terrain, much larger draw distance, checking every second to see if something was shot.

Basicaly it comes down to, is PS3 really going to do Ps2 CG in real-time with better AI, better draw distance, more enemies on screen... Im skeptical.

But more importantly, your correlation with the past doesnt mean they are fake or not.

And would you beleive that the Ps4 can summon god to beat the game instead of using cheat codes?

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 06:33 PM
oh shut up. that's the same thing people were saying about MGS2, but in the end it turned out to be real.
I am a bit skeptical about the graphics being that good in killzone 2, but I deffinetly think its possible.

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 07:00 PM
damn Icarus, you never fail to amaze me bringing all this irrelavant crap into the arguement. The PS2 is capable of doing those tech demoes, in fact its capable of graphics that kick the **** out of those tech demos and don't you try to deny it.
whether or not the launch games looked as good has nothing to do with this. In the end sony did not lie about the machine's capabilities.
Case closed.

I was the first to use the non sequitur "case closed," so that must mean I win!

So lets, for a second, agree with Seska, and say it has been surpassed.
Guess what, that doesnt change the fact that Killzone 2 is fake!

You are quite right! But unfortunately, reason skedaddled from this topic several pages ago. They refuse to concede to the bigger picture; that is, Sony's hype is misleading overall, and if an overwhelmingly large number of spectators feel incredulous about Sony's posturing, they are in fact justified in their skepticism.

Even if they were absolutely and unequivocally right about Sony's PS2 charms (which they certainly are not), then it still shouldn't matter. Spectators should be skeptical anyway; it's a bastion of critical thinking.

Then again, in the eyes of some folks, it would appear some parties can do no wrong (no matter how simply framed the counterargument may be). I mean, how dare any of the rest of us think otherwise! :too mad:

Sony: 1.
Criticial thinking and rational thought: 0.

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 08:58 PM
No, saying case closed first does not mean you win. Saying it with an arguement that the other person/s can't counter does.
Naruto_sensei: 1
Sony_haters: 0

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 09:56 PM
No, saying case closed first does not mean you win.

Yes it does. So, nyah!

Besides, I countered your argument. You just refused to acknowledge it.

naurto_sensei: -3
TF6: A bajillion.

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 10:40 PM
you countered my arguement? when? obviously not during your last post. would you mind countering again?
Naruto_sensei: infinite
sony_haters: -infinite

Thunder Force 6
05-24-2005, 11:00 PM
you countered my arguement? when? obviously not during your last post. would you mind countering again?
Naruto_sensei: infinite
sony_haters: -infinite

Yes, I would. Please reread the thread.

n_s: Infinite - 1.
TF6: Assload of numbers that look cooler than infinite.

naruto_sensei
05-24-2005, 11:02 PM
oh come on. can't you just sum it up in a few words or something..
EDIT: I've reread the whole thread. still can't find anything.

Sony Fanboy
05-25-2005, 03:19 AM
Yes, I would. Please reread the thread.

You've brought up more irrelevent topics on this thread than anyone else here.

Also, it seems that you're one of the few who were actually mislead by the hype. Obviously those who didn't believe the pre-launch hype have little complaints.

Thunder Force 6
05-25-2005, 03:55 AM
We bought our PS2 in 2003. I mean, the Dreamcast was doing me fine until the desire for FFX became all-consuming. I have little buyer's remorse; the PS2 hasn't self-destructed. I've played through a few games on the PS2...

I just realized I've only beaten two games for my PS2.

Sweet Jesus. What the hell have I been doing the last two years?

Anywho, I was just referring to the fact that the quality of graphics has no set objective standard for judgement. Thus, neither of us are right, more than likely. It's like people who think that Twilight Princess looks better than the Wind Waker. On the suface, one might at first consider this. Some, however, may consider the intricate character builds and precisely executed use of shadowing to create the almost-perfect cell-shaded effect in the latter. In that case, they may find the Wind Waker more impressive. The only thing either camp could do at that point is agree to disagree.

The other part of my argument was trying to get people to quit with the blind fanboyism toward Sony. It is a terrible company and doesn't deserve your loyalty. Come to think of it, no company does.

Besides, irrelevance is my forte. And now... THE US CONSTITUTION:

...

j/k :P

wunko
05-25-2005, 06:10 AM
LOL Yeah I remember the days when DC fanboys would say DC would never fail and it'd kill PS2 but turns out DC disappeared. Wherever I went though I saw more DC fanboys prior to PS2's release. :yikes:

I used to be a PS fanboy b/c of DC fanboys aggrevating me until I saw myself mirror in XB fanboys in the recent years. And plus if I wanted to play DOA which switched to XB (if it'd stay on PS I wouldn't have to buy a new console) then I would have to get an XB or just keep complaining and play nothing. :donno:

Guess XB fanboys are no better than PS fanboys then, huh?

My PS systems never broke. And I don't hold anything against MS about faulty XB cords. Never really expected perfection. :8):

BGM
05-27-2005, 01:28 PM
I take it you didn't get all those great games at launch. Well what's launch got to do with it ? I take it you got all those great games on Gamecube period! :lol:

BGM
05-27-2005, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=Thunder Force 6]Seconded. For the record, I'm an anti-fanboy. Yeah right :rolleyes: !

BGM
05-27-2005, 01:35 PM
I'm with Alucard and Thunder Force 6 on the thread topic, for the most part anyway. Do I consider the GC a better console than the PS2? Yes, certainly. Does the GC have a better lineup of software? I don't think it does. In the end, though, it's obvious, to reasonable people, at least, that the PS2 failed to deliver on its expectations. For those who have sold their minds and souls to Sony, no explanation will ever be reasonable enough; they see what they want to see and nothing else.
I wasn't aware you were a reasonable person , only a Nintendo,Sega,XBox fanboy.

konstantine
05-27-2005, 03:59 PM
I wasn't aware you were a reasonable person , only a Nintendo,Sega,XBox fanboy.

Hes is just bitter because some game company let him down in his mind. He has to understand that they really don't care about him.

Thunder Force 6
05-27-2005, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE=Thunder Force 6]Seconded. For the record, I'm an anti-fanboy. Yeah right :rolleyes: !

AND BGM GOES FOR THE... WHOA... WHOA... WHOA...... TRIPLE POST! OMGF!

You just couldn't let a bad thread die. :rolleyes: Is BGM just a vapid Sony fanboy? Has he such issues with debating that when an opposing opinion arises the other side is automatically reeking with illogical fanboyism? Is he doomed to wear Sony-branded blinders for the rest of his days? HAS HE NO SHAME?

YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE IN THE FILM VERSION OF THE MAGICBOX FORUMS, SURE TO BE THE NEW 'JACKASS' OF VIDEO GAMING! Just as long as I can jump out a window on fire with an alligator biting my leg playing a Sega Nomad! Am I playing the Nomad, OR IS THE ALLIGATOR?! YOU'LL HAVE TO WATCH TO FIND OUT!

:P

Damnit, alright. One serious reposte.

Well what's launch got to do with it ? I take it you got all those great games on Gamecube period!

Please see the whole launch window and proposed demo graphics thing. IIrc, Nintendo launched with SSBM and Luigi's Manison (among others) that were identical to graphic demos when the games were under development. Halo turned out to be better than the early tech demos, and was ready for the XBox's launch. Any from Sony?

*Crickets chirping.*

This argument was dumb from the start; from those that started it, to those who defended it, to those of us who wasted precious brain cells trying to set you straight. Can we please let this die now?

Sony Fanboy
05-27-2005, 08:42 PM
Nintendo launched with SSBM and Luigi's Manison (among others) that were identical to graphic demos when the games were under development.

Apart from that Link vs Ganon demo; and early Halo demos had much more physics and particle detail.

Why are you compairing graphic demos with release games for other consoles; but compairing technical demos with release games for the PS2?

The PS2 graphics heavy launch titles - Driving Emotion, Tekken Tag and Bouncer look like the early demos. Bouncer and Driving Emotion had a lot more graphical detail than the demos.


This argument was dumb from the start

The original post was about current PS2 games with early demos. It never said anything about launch games.

BGM
05-27-2005, 09:46 PM
AND BGM GOES FOR THE... WHOA... WHOA... WHOA...... TRIPLE POST! OMGF!

You just couldn't let a bad thread die. :rolleyes: Is BGM just a vapid Sony fanboy? Has he such issues with debating that when an opposing opinion arises the other side is automatically reeking with illogical fanboyism? Is he doomed to wear Sony-branded blinders for the rest of his days? HAS HE NO SHAME?
NO dude you are the fan boy around here not me!
YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE IN THE FILM VERSION OF THE MAGICBOX FORUMS, SURE TO BE THE NEW 'JACKASS' OF VIDEO GAMING! Just as long as I can jump out a window on fire with an alligator biting my leg playing a Sega Nomad! Am I playing the Nomad, OR IS THE ALLIGATOR?! YOU'LL HAVE TO WATCH TO FIND OUT!
I'll take your word for you being the new jackass of video gaming !
:P

Damnit, alright. One serious reposte.



Please see the whole launch window and proposed demo graphics thing. IIrc, Nintendo launched with SSBM and Luigi's Manison (among others) that were identical to graphic demos when the games were under development. Halo turned out to be better than the early tech demos, and was ready for the XBox's launch. Any from Sony?

*Crickets chirping.*

This argument was dumb from the start; from those that started it, to those who defended it, to those of us who wasted precious brain cells trying to set you straight. Can we please let this die now?
Dude your the fan boy not me, but yeah I like Sony they've treated me right. You're the one with the issues not me , and I'd say they are mental ones! I'll take your word about you being the new jackass of video gaming! Half these posts were off topic and had nothing to do with launch graphics,and Luigis mansion as an example of anything great :lol: you've got to be kidding right?

Thunder Force 6
05-28-2005, 02:16 AM
Dude your the fan boy not me, but yeah I like Sony they've treated me right. You're the one with the issues not me , and I'd say they are mental ones! I'll take your word about you being the new jackass of video gaming! Half these posts were off topic and had nothing to do with launch graphics,and Luigis mansion as an example of anything great :lol: you've got to be kidding right?

THIS WEB SUX. THIS IS THE BIGGEST BULL**** I CAN SEE. AND BGM IS A **** GAY, AND YOU, PEOPLE, ARE A MOTHER****ERS, A BIGH MOTHER****ERS.*

The original post was about current PS2 games with early demos. It never said anything about launch games.

That was my point entirely. So, just nevermind, OK? You guys are lost causes.

*Beats head against keyboard.*

asdhjkflaurugblarhkblgvauiglsergfhae;hukrgrvhuahub gveo;huiAWEHGA;SERO;HIGUOG;sao:ugUAUGIRRAUIGEUI

*: If you get angry at this, you have no Interweb knowledge, nor do you have a sense of humor. :P It should also give you some idea of how seriously I'm treating any responses at this point. Maybe more tomorrow; if you don't get it yet, you never will.

BGM
05-28-2005, 03:52 PM
THIS WEB SUX. THIS IS THE BIGGEST BULL**** I CAN SEE. AND BGM IS A **** GAY, AND YOU, PEOPLE, ARE A MOTHER****ERS, A BIGH MOTHER****ERS.*



That was my point entirely. So, just nevermind, OK? You guys are lost causes.

*Beats head against keyboard.*

asdhjkflaurugblarhkblgvauiglsergfhae;hukrgrvhuahub gveo;huiAWEHGA;SERO;HIGUOG;sao:ugUAUGIRRAUIGEUI

*: If you get angry at this, you have no Interweb knowledge, nor do you have a sense of humor. :P It should also give you some idea of how seriously I'm treating any responses at this point. Maybe more tomorrow; if you don't get it yet, you never will.
Anything you say fag boy, we really,really believe your not a fan boy!

Thunder Force 6
05-28-2005, 11:04 PM
Anything you say fag boy, we really,really believe your not a fan boy!

:lol:

Keep thinking. I'll post the link in a little while. Does anyone know to what I'm paying tribute?

PS: I'm not a fanboy. You are. So there. :P

TheHardware
05-28-2005, 11:25 PM
carl throw a one word of topic post to break the tension.

BGM
05-29-2005, 02:12 PM
:lol:

Keep thinking. I'll post the link in a little while. Does anyone know to what I'm paying tribute?

PS: I'm not a fanboy. You are. So there. :P
No dude it's quite obvious to everybody here that you are the fanboy not me! I f someone points out your obvious fanboy obssevieness, then that automatically makes them a fanboy right :rolleyes: ? It's funny how you are attacking Sony in 2 different threads, one about PS3 isn't going to deliver Killzone 2 graphics, and in this one that they lied about delivering "quoted graphical power" at launch. You ridicule them for being the weakest of the three current gen consoles in graphical power, and it appears Sony is listening to peoples complaints about PS2 and trying to improve themselves next time with PS3 (customer aservice) so Mr. I'm not a fanboy where are your posts on Sony trying to improve themselves? Sorry I must have missed them somehow :donno: .

Thunder Force 6
05-29-2005, 03:58 PM
Sony has made absolutely no strides in their customer relations. They haven't designed their new system because people complained about the PS2's lack of power; if you'll recall, the PS2 is the best selling console of this generation. They're boneheaded about reclaiming the stat crown this generation, and are going a bit overkill to do so. Don't misconstrue this as an appeal to consumers for their trust. You can be rest assured Sony has had no incentive to change their ways. If they were to, then they could just as easily overhaul their cunstomer service policies so that they don't so much ream the customer.

Sony is a big evil company, as I wrote. It doesn't deserve your trust. Nintendo was evil (very evil) once, but isn't so much anymore. MS, well, they speak for themselves. The reason I don't take to fanboyism is because it means swearing an allegiance to a company such as these. You've apparently cast your lot with Sony; congradulations. You mean nothing to them. I don't swear allegiance to any corporation. What you're seeing as fanboyism is actually normal conversation undercut by my personal politics. I'm an American Democrat (i.e. not the psychos who started wars) with a Socialist bent. It makes my blood boil when anyone trusts a corporation like this.

As for the joke... Look here (http://www.aaroninjapan.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1003&highlight=hijack).

To be fair, I was just having a bit of fun with you. I mean, you bit right on to it and flipped out, which was a better than expected response. I am suprised how well it elicted a sweeping Sony defense, even as you were trying to convince me that I was the fanboy. Try and let that little slice of irony sink in. I still like ya, though, so calm down, eh?

BGM
05-29-2005, 04:23 PM
Sony has made absolutely no strides in their customer relations. They haven't designed their new system because people complained about the PS2's lack of power; if you'll recall, the PS2 is the best selling console of this generation.
Sony is a big evil company, as I wrote. It doesn't deserve your trust. Nintendo was evil (very evil) once, but isn't so much anymore. MS, well, they speak for themselves. The reason I don't take to fanboyism is because it means swearing an allegiance to a company such as these. You've apparently cast your lot with Sony; congradulations. You mean nothing to them. I don't swear allegiance to any corporation. What you're seeing as fanboyism is actually normal conversation undercut by my personal politics. I'm an American Democrat (i.e. not the psychos who started wars) with a Socialist bent. It makes my blood boil when anyone trusts a corporation like this.

As for the joke... Look here (http://www.aaroninjapan.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1003&highlight=hijack).

To be fair, I was just having a bit of fun with you. I mean, you bit right on to it and flipped out, which was a better than expected response. I am suprised how well it elicted a sweeping Sony defense, even as you were trying to convince me that I was the fanboy. Try and let that little slice of irony sink in. I still like ya, though, so calm down, eh?
Y ou have no proof or clue why Sony is waiting till last only your fanboy opinion, but to be honest I don't really think they are because of cutomers, more like bragging rights (see there you bit on that one :lol: ;) ) as far as them not deserving anybody's loyalty neither does Nintendo and they are still just as if not more evil than Sony they simply don't carry much third party weight in the gaming industry anymore (that may change with Revolution) because of their A-hole, greedy policies of the past so come off your Nintendo high horse and reel back into reality dude, and oh yeah a Democrat that explains it. I am not Loyal to Sony in the extreme that you suggest, I would and will dump them in a heartbeat when they lose the the massive 3rd party to Nintendo or Microsoft (I have stated this many times, and if I didn't word it exactly that way I'm saying it now SONY IF YOU DROP THE BALL ON THIRD PARTY SUPPORT I WILL DROP YOU LIKE A HOT POTATO! There are you happy now, does that exonerate me from fanboy charges? Oh wait that probably means I'm not a hardcore gamer now that I don't rabidly support one console, and oh yeah I happen to like some of Ea's games so that means I'm not a true gamer :donno: , some of the fanboy arguments on here are truly astounding :yikes: have a nice day.

Thunder Force 6
05-29-2005, 04:40 PM
There are you happy now, does that exonerate me from fanboy charges?

Yes, actually. Yes it does.

and it appears Sony is listening to peoples complaints about PS2 and trying to improve themselves next time with PS3 (customer aservice) so Mr. I'm not a fanboy where are your posts on Sony trying to improve themselves

but to be honest I don't really think they are because of cutomers, more like bragging rights (see there you bit on that one

Huh? Dischord?

some of the fanboy arguments on here are truly astounding

I agree. Quit making them. :P

I especially like the Democrat stab. I take it you're a Republican. Maybe that's why I'm having such fun with you? :D

I'm going to eat something. A new Gamestop just opened and they supposedly has a very organized used games section; I'll have to stop by there too. Have a nice day. :spinface:

BGM
05-29-2005, 04:54 PM
Yes, actually. Yes it does.[Quote] Thats nice



Huh? Dischord?[Quote]
Huh?


I agree. Quit making them.[Quote ] You certainly need to and the sooner the better!

I especially like the Democrat stab. I take it you're a Republican. Maybe that's why I'm having such fun with you? [Quote] Actually I'm neither but you know the lesser of 2 evils.
I'm going to eat something. A new Gamestop just opened and they supposedly has a very organized used games section; I'll have to stop by there too. Have a nice day. :spinface: You have one too :D .

Thunder Force 6
05-29-2005, 06:41 PM
I just told you I'm not a fanboy. Neither are you.

I like yelling at everyone. Let's leave it at that.

Seska
06-05-2005, 12:31 PM
Thread Revival time! :D

I was watching a video I found on your forums and it was an interview with Jack Tretton of SCEA.

(About the Killzone trailer)

INT: "Is there some stuff in there that's just smoke and mirrors?"

JT: "It's definitely real. I guess we're pretty good at keeping secrets because the dev kits were out there. The dev kits were very intuitive so people did some incredible things, and that's one thing Ken wanted to make sure everyone understood. That is real gameplay everybody's seeing out there. And I think another advantage is..." (gets cut off by the interviewer)

I: "So that's real gameplay? All of that stuff is playable?"

JT: "It is gameplay..."

But according to Greg Kasavin on this week's On the Spot, the Killzone trailer is just a representation of what they want to create; nevertheless, it's an awesome trailer. But that's all it is, a trailer.

What's with the mixed messages? Is it CGI or is it real gameplay?

Thomas Rega
Marietta, Georgia

OK, let's just settle this once and for all. There's been an awful lot of confusion surrounding this whole thing, and considering that even I was a little fuzzy on the specifics, I don't blame anyone for being confused. Here's the deal:

Sony has maintained since E3 that everything it showed at the press conference was done in real time. That means that every one of those demos was being rendered in real time by some kind of hardware kit that at least closely resembled the exact specs of the PS3. Our friend here, Jack Tretton, saying that dev kits are out, probably means that preliminary alpha kits are available to developers right now. Those kits don't have the exact specs of what the PS3 will have, but it's probably pretty close. When Tretton says that it's gameplay, he's probably saying the same thing that Sony's been saying all along, just not as clearly. When Greg was talking about this in On the Spot, he wasn't saying that it was CG, but rather that it was likely real time, just not actual gameplay--the difference being that those real-time demos were probably completely scripted sequences running in-engine, rather than a guy actually holding a controller and playing each of those sequences. So, while the PS3 is likely capable of rendering in-game graphics on the level of, say, the Killzone 2 trailer, there probably wasn't someone actually playing a "game" during that demo, but rather it was a scripted scene using a potential game engine to render it in real time.

Phew. Got all that? Good, because I'm never typing all that again. -- A.N.

So GS' stance is that the footage was realtime, but scripted. Let the speculation continue.

Eidan
06-05-2005, 03:35 PM
Wow...I've never seen so much bull**** spouted in one thread.

The Sony demos were meant to show the graphical capabilities of the PS2, and the PS2 has delievered and surpassed those demos, as early as FFX and MGS2. Hell, I don't see how someone can look at Silent Hill 3 or 4 and say otherwise.

The Sony demos for E3 2k5 are meant to show the graphical capabilties of the PS3, and they will most likely deliever and be surpassed.

And can whine and bitch about the PS2 not having "Toy Story" graphics and how Sony "lied" to you all you want. The fact remains that in terms of demos, Sony has come through, and will come through again.

Icarus4578
06-05-2005, 03:56 PM
Seska, it's still BS because the dev. team that did the Killzone 2 trailer demo even said that it took them six months to render it and the PS3/Cell isn't even finished yet. Once again they're working with 'estimates,' or a close proximity of what they want the system to be, though it's unlikely they'll match their preliminary spec sheets (PS2, PSP....). Like it or not, until the actual PS3 is up and running with people playing it, you're not going to see what the actual system is capable of.

DeathStroke
06-05-2005, 04:16 PM
If this is just what the alpha kits are capable of, I wonder how powerful the actual finalized hardware will be.

TheHardware
06-05-2005, 05:45 PM
teh machine is powerful.....it will come down to the developers to bring out that kind of realism.....i personaly think it wont look that great., but it wont be a let down....in finality gurilla have already proven that no matter how god they can make graphics (killzone1) they cant make a good game..ill wait for konamis offering on the ps3...as they never fail to deliver on gaphics and gameplay.

Icarus4578
06-06-2005, 10:34 AM
If this is just what the alpha kits are capable of, I wonder how powerful the actual finalized hardware will be.

Not as powerful. They never are.

Seska
06-06-2005, 02:54 PM
Seska, it's still BS because the dev. team that did the Killzone 2 trailer demo even said that it took them six months to render it and the PS3/Cell isn't even finished yet. Once again they're working with 'estimates,' or a close proximity of what they want the system to be, though it's unlikely they'll match their preliminary spec sheets (PS2, PSP....). Like it or not, until the actual PS3 is up and running with people playing it, you're not going to see what the actual system is capable of.

You have your facts wrong, the six months figure is the time Guerrilla have been working on KZ2. Do you really think they would waste 6 months of wages and time for a 4 minute cgi sequence? CGI is usually made by an external studio, not by Guerrilla, and no studios have been associated to this cutscene.

As I mentioned in this thread a while back, I do think its real time but scripted, like a MGS cutscene. Add in AI routines and physics and controls and a whole other set of things that actual gameplay will require, and you probably wont be looking at something quite as flashy as the cutscene, but nonetheless still close.

Hell, the Unreal 3 engine is capable of similar amazing graphical feats, and has been proven to be running real time. What is seen in KZ2 is nto such a far stretch from that. And this, from a first gen title.

Thunder Force 6
06-06-2005, 03:32 PM
As I mentioned in this thread a while back, I do think its real time but scripted, like a MGS cutscene.

What leads you to think this?

Add in AI routines and physics and controls and a whole other set of things that actual gameplay will require, and you probably wont be looking at something quite as flashy as the cutscene, but nonetheless still close.

What leads you to think this?

Hell, the Unreal 3 engine is capable of similar amazing graphical feats, and has been proven to be running real time.

That's because PCs exist now, as opposed to not really existing until Fall.

What is seen in KZ2 is nto such a far stretch from that. And this, from a first gen title.

Because we all know Sony comes through for us in the first generation. :P

Seska
06-06-2005, 07:13 PM
Say as you want, Thunder Force, Im not even going to bother arguing with you. Its counterproductive. You don't even grasp the concept of dev kits, so you are not worth my time. Good luck baiting someone else.

Now here's your bottle of milk, go take a nap, why dontcha.

Nindalf
06-06-2005, 07:26 PM
Say as you want, Thunder Force, Im not even going to bother arguing with you. Its counterproductive. You don't even grasp the concept of dev kits, so you are not worth my time.

Am I worth your time? =(

Seska
06-06-2005, 07:31 PM
Only if you cut out Mario's heart for me. :o

Nindalf
06-06-2005, 07:48 PM
All I ever wanted was your unconditional love. ;_;

Thunder Force 6
06-06-2005, 11:55 PM
Say as you want, Thunder Force, Im not even going to bother arguing with you. Its counterproductive. You don't even grasp the concept of dev kits, so you are not worth my time. Good luck baiting someone else.

Now here's your bottle of milk, go take a nap, why dontcha.

Damn. Sony fanboys are getting less fun now that they've figured me out. Oh well; I must employ mosquito logic. The more you ignore me, the more annoying I become!

While I do understand the concept of dev kits, I also like to believe something when I've seen it with my own eyes. Blind faith is the last refuge of fools, at least so far as material concepts are involved. Sony isn't exactly the most honest of companies; your trust is grievously misplaced.

Of course, I wanted to see what a common Sony fanboy would do if set on the defensive, leaving you to explain your reasons for your views. My bet was right; you're incapable of defending your position. I'd imagine you aren't alone in your camp.

I'm not going to believe anything about these damnedable new consoles until I see stuff running with controller in hand. Sony taught me never to believe in any company's empty promises; a good lesson indeed.

Oh, and I can't drink milk, your insensitive f* ck. :P

I love you, Nindalf. :spinface:

TheHardware
06-07-2005, 01:36 AM
Damn. Sony fanboys are getting less fun now that they've figured me out. Oh well; I must employ mosquito logic. The more you ignore me, the more annoying I become!

While I do understand the concept of dev kits, I also like to believe something when I've seen it with my own eyes. Blind faith is the last refuge of fools, at least so far as material concepts are involved. Sony isn't exactly the most honest of companies; your trust is grievously misplaced.

Of course, I wanted to see what a common Sony fanboy would do if set on the defensive, leaving you to explain your reasons for your views. My bet was right; you're incapable of defending your position. I'd imagine you aren't alone in your camp.

I'm not going to believe anything about these damnedable new consoles until I see stuff running with controller in hand. Sony taught me never to believe in any company's empty promises; a good lesson indeed.

Oh, and I can't drink milk, your insensitive f* ck. :P

I love you, Nindalf. :spinface:

is it me or do you just use the word fanboy to describe anyone who doesnt agree with you?

Thunder Force 6
06-07-2005, 03:48 AM
is it me or do you just use the word fanboy to describe anyone who doesnt agree with you?

Not really. I try to only use it where applicable, though here of late it's been more retaliatory. Seska places a lot of faith in Sony, a corporation. It's misguided loyalty. Of course, it seems by default that anyone who likes one brand must hate the others. This entire thread has been trying to fluff Sony's pillow, perhaps in the face of common sense.

Sony's hyperbole about the PS2 is almost legendary. (75 million polygons at once? I don't think real life has so high a count!) Why shouldn't we expect something similar this time around? Why is it so wrong for us to be skeptical? Why am I a fanboy for calling Sony out on their own bull****?

Let me clarify my position on things to completely and utterly derail this topic even further:

I'm just as mean to Nintendo. Nintendo dropped the ball this generation to an alarming degree, both with third-party relations and online play (something I didn't know I needed before this gen). They have, however, generated some of the best games ever (The Wind Waker, Metroid Prime 1 & 2 [best looking games this gen, IMO], etc.) nontheless. Nintendo was once, of course, a company of insidious repute, but not so much anymore. I guess I go a little easier on them because they're the underdog nowadays, and I'm usually given to rooting for the underdog.

Sony took all the great ideas and sense of adventure noted in the Playstation era (yes, I loved the PSOne, and still do; it has the second highest games:system ratio of my collection, behind the SNES :D ) and managed to bring it all to a grinding halt. Thus, they fell into a Nintendo like pattern of going with sure things and eschewing a bolder approach to gaming. In spite of this, we've seen some great revivals of tired genres (balls-out action is my favorite, like with Devil May Cry and Contra). They are exceptions to be sure (Sony's harsh rules for American publishing are easily compared to Nintendo's iron grip on said rights in the 80s), but are worthy of note. Sony is, of course, a company of insidious repute, and with my politics, they get knocked down a few points.

Microsoft really hasn't done anything wrong, except maybe that first controller design. I'll have to (grudgingly) admit that the XBox has been my system of choice, both for bold new spins on otherwise tired genres (Splinter Cell, Chronicles of Riddick, HALER!, etc.) and a suprising respect for us old arcadedogs (Capcom fighters, SNK games, etc.). All this, and nearly universal enhanced/high definition gaming serves only to ice the cake. As of yet, given only their track record in one generation, the XBox 360 is the console I'd feel most comfortable purchasing if I had to make the call today (assuming we get a similar dose of originality and nostalgia). Microsoft is, of course, a company of insidious repute, and with my politics, they get knocked down a few points.

Portables are easy. PSP is boring. DS is slightly less boring (with a better-looking horizon, though). GBA is entrancing. I loved me some Super Nintendo back in the day (i.e. last Sunday), and for some reason I find the magic missing from modern gaming to be overflowing from these damnedable little carts. Sure, I'd have preferred some better audio hardware, two more buttons (an inexcusable omission), and lighting from the get-go, but I just can't stop enjoying the games that pop up for it. The PSP is going to need some mean magic to catch up, I'll tell 'em that. Maybe they should siphon it off some extra PSOnes that are lying around.

There you have it. I'm critical, but fair. I won't stop being critical, either. I'll be here to even out hyperbole with piercing wit and vagrant insults, so be forewarned! I am an incredible *******!

...

Who still loves Nindalf.

So, with that being wrote, I might like to hear why Seska hates Nintendo so much. I mean, yikes. Mario's... heart?

Seska
06-07-2005, 05:24 AM
is it me or do you just use the word fanboy to describe anyone who doesnt agree with you?

ITs a common baiting tactic used by common board trolls. :D

Thunder Force 6
06-07-2005, 12:45 PM
ITs a common baiting tactic used by common board trolls. :D

No response, then? Good. I'll return to my home under a bridge down by the river. :P

phknrocket1k
06-07-2005, 06:46 PM
What a trollish thread.